What would you pay for this 67 911? Nothing to compare to...
12-12-2008, 05:16 PM
#1
What would you pay for this 67 911? Nothing to compare to...
I'm going to have a look at a "garage find" 67 911 tomorrow. My wife and I went over to have a look at a child's bed advertised locally on Craig's list a couple months ago. Lo and behold, the fellow had a 67 911 coupe in his garage with junk piled on top of it, so I had to ask about it. Would he sell it, etcetera? Turns out, he's the original owner, and no, he had no plans on selling it.
So my wife didn't like the bed, and we didn't buy it. But when we got home, I got his email address from my wife and wrote the guy an email saying, I'm a Porsche enthusiast, yadda, yadda, if you're ever interested in selling the 911, even 10 years down the line, give me a call. I get a call from him earlier this week... interested in selling.
This is what I know: 1967 911 coupe (not S model). Been a driver all its life. Claims it has been parked for 1.5 years (not sure at this time why it was parked). Not currently running. Had distributor rebuilt and not reinstalled yet. Don't know if that's the only reason it's not running. Transmission is not original. Engine said to be original case, but to have been rebuilt some time ago with larger pistons and cylinders but still kept original heads. Don't know exactly what was done. Owner mentioned 2.2L. This rebuild may have been all the way back in early 80's as part of minor restoration. I need to clarify this. Has original Webers.
Don't yet know overall condition of body regarding rust. This is top priority for the inspection tomorrow. Was repainted in a different Porsche red than original during the early 80's reconditioning. Don't know anything about interior condition, yet.
Looking at the usual places on line, I didn't see much to compare it to except what looks like a decently restored 67 (at least in pics) currently on ebay that is asking $30,000, buy it now.
Any thoughts? Let's say it's a good condition not completely numbers matching not currently running car... no major rust issues, but interior/exterior cosmetics somewhat rough. Does it break $10,000 for anyone?
Brett
So my wife didn't like the bed, and we didn't buy it. But when we got home, I got his email address from my wife and wrote the guy an email saying, I'm a Porsche enthusiast, yadda, yadda, if you're ever interested in selling the 911, even 10 years down the line, give me a call. I get a call from him earlier this week... interested in selling.
This is what I know: 1967 911 coupe (not S model). Been a driver all its life. Claims it has been parked for 1.5 years (not sure at this time why it was parked). Not currently running. Had distributor rebuilt and not reinstalled yet. Don't know if that's the only reason it's not running. Transmission is not original. Engine said to be original case, but to have been rebuilt some time ago with larger pistons and cylinders but still kept original heads. Don't know exactly what was done. Owner mentioned 2.2L. This rebuild may have been all the way back in early 80's as part of minor restoration. I need to clarify this. Has original Webers.
Don't yet know overall condition of body regarding rust. This is top priority for the inspection tomorrow. Was repainted in a different Porsche red than original during the early 80's reconditioning. Don't know anything about interior condition, yet.
Looking at the usual places on line, I didn't see much to compare it to except what looks like a decently restored 67 (at least in pics) currently on ebay that is asking $30,000, buy it now.
Any thoughts? Let's say it's a good condition not completely numbers matching not currently running car... no major rust issues, but interior/exterior cosmetics somewhat rough. Does it break $10,000 for anyone?
Brett
12-12-2008, 06:55 PM
#4
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in not-running state, the key issues are physical condition (rust? accidents? etc?), completeness (ALL the parts there & how original?), history (usage, records, storage) & desirability (original spec, rarity, options, mkt demand). he probably parked it due to a combination of issues (perhaps some now forgotten), not just a single failure - buying it is just the start of an adventure ($$$). {clean, straight swb 911s will be the "new 356s" in the next collector mkt upswing... whenever THAT happens...}
this example seems to be a project for an experienced old 911 mechanic or resto shop, for whom the risks are mitigated by expertise. the current market climate makes it very hard to put a general number on a specific deal. it might be around a $5K car as it sits... you tell us what the lowest he'll accept is, & then we'll all know. good luck!
this example seems to be a project for an experienced old 911 mechanic or resto shop, for whom the risks are mitigated by expertise. the current market climate makes it very hard to put a general number on a specific deal. it might be around a $5K car as it sits... you tell us what the lowest he'll accept is, & then we'll all know. good luck!
12-12-2008, 07:42 PM
#6
Brett
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12-13-2008, 12:23 PM
#8
Skippy
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Ked, is that your project car ? Looks great. And please do say some more on the SWB 911 being the next 356, why would that be the case?
12-13-2008, 07:21 PM
#10
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Kris, (not to hijack Brett's post) it seems all my cars are projects, except the '87 Coupe - that one is pretty nice & best left that way.
I got the '66 912 about 1 1/2 yrs ago. It is Irish Green, #s matching, 5sp. The owner had it since it was about 2 yrs old - he was a NASA human factors engineer, a Formula Jr racer back-in-the-day, & a solid mechanic. The car has had no accidents, one repaint, solid drivetrain, very nice interior, & very little rust - he used it as his commuter car until he retired. So, after examination & test driving (on Michelin XAS tires that must've been 10+ yrs old!) I convinced myself that I "couldn't go wrong" & bought it.
I had no special plan, just knowledge that such cars (& no-stories story) are uncommon these days. As every 356 owner knows you need one more engine (at least) than you've got chassis for, so I've thought about using the 912 motor in my SC (switching it to 12V), & putting the SC motor in my D... thus, I could then put a zippy small displacement (2 or 2.2 or 2.4L) 911 motor in it, or a hot VW motor (ala Jack Raby or built by a friend who used to make Type 1 drag engines) in the 912. A light 4cyl Porsche w/ 155hp is an appealing concept to me. I was talked out of the 6cyl by a gang of enthusiast-strangers (one was driving a 917) I spoke to at Rennsport III ("don't put a 911 motor in a 912! it is a great pkg, & properly tuned, can take many 911s on a tight track in the hands of a good driver" & etc.).
Which brings us to your question of the swb 911 (& perhaps its appeal to Brett). These were the lightest & most "dynamic" of the 911s - talk about tto & rotation! Their design weaknesses were overcome over the years - you can just about cram a 930 suspension & drivetrain under one, if you really want... As to history, the first iteration of a style that becomes successful will always appeal, will always be in some demand. Pre-A 356s have experienced that trend, whether museum-concours or outlaw. And of course, the early 911 continued & then vastly expanded the dual-purpose racing heritage of the 356. So what's not to like?
Seems to me that the 356s are coming down in price, just like everything else in the current economy... but not by alot, esp for very good to excellent examples. Meanwhile, swb 911s had only just begun to see a rise in general interest & value (of course, excellent survivors or historically important ones have always been in demand). People had figured out how to make them right, & how much fun they are to drive. Vintage racing in the under 2.5 L class became a 911 playground. Yet it was not yet a commercial biz case - too much labor, too few good examples (crashes, rust, poor/defered maintainence) & too much time to completion. Now, there is not much of a business case for the pros to focus on survivor swb 911s. When the economy returns, there MAY be a refocus on the early cars as "modern enough to drive & maintain, cheap enough for the middle class enthusiast & common enough to find a good one to start with..." Add to that being a blast to drive, I think a proper swb 911 will gain in attention among many committed Porsche enthusiasts, old & new.
Perhaps not quite the investment opportunity of 356s (older & fewer remaining), but definitely something for the 911 enthusiast who invests his labor... & in the end might not even lose much money.
just my thoughts... cheers!
I got the '66 912 about 1 1/2 yrs ago. It is Irish Green, #s matching, 5sp. The owner had it since it was about 2 yrs old - he was a NASA human factors engineer, a Formula Jr racer back-in-the-day, & a solid mechanic. The car has had no accidents, one repaint, solid drivetrain, very nice interior, & very little rust - he used it as his commuter car until he retired. So, after examination & test driving (on Michelin XAS tires that must've been 10+ yrs old!) I convinced myself that I "couldn't go wrong" & bought it.
I had no special plan, just knowledge that such cars (& no-stories story) are uncommon these days. As every 356 owner knows you need one more engine (at least) than you've got chassis for, so I've thought about using the 912 motor in my SC (switching it to 12V), & putting the SC motor in my D... thus, I could then put a zippy small displacement (2 or 2.2 or 2.4L) 911 motor in it, or a hot VW motor (ala Jack Raby or built by a friend who used to make Type 1 drag engines) in the 912. A light 4cyl Porsche w/ 155hp is an appealing concept to me. I was talked out of the 6cyl by a gang of enthusiast-strangers (one was driving a 917) I spoke to at Rennsport III ("don't put a 911 motor in a 912! it is a great pkg, & properly tuned, can take many 911s on a tight track in the hands of a good driver" & etc.).
Which brings us to your question of the swb 911 (& perhaps its appeal to Brett). These were the lightest & most "dynamic" of the 911s - talk about tto & rotation! Their design weaknesses were overcome over the years - you can just about cram a 930 suspension & drivetrain under one, if you really want... As to history, the first iteration of a style that becomes successful will always appeal, will always be in some demand. Pre-A 356s have experienced that trend, whether museum-concours or outlaw. And of course, the early 911 continued & then vastly expanded the dual-purpose racing heritage of the 356. So what's not to like?
Seems to me that the 356s are coming down in price, just like everything else in the current economy... but not by alot, esp for very good to excellent examples. Meanwhile, swb 911s had only just begun to see a rise in general interest & value (of course, excellent survivors or historically important ones have always been in demand). People had figured out how to make them right, & how much fun they are to drive. Vintage racing in the under 2.5 L class became a 911 playground. Yet it was not yet a commercial biz case - too much labor, too few good examples (crashes, rust, poor/defered maintainence) & too much time to completion. Now, there is not much of a business case for the pros to focus on survivor swb 911s. When the economy returns, there MAY be a refocus on the early cars as "modern enough to drive & maintain, cheap enough for the middle class enthusiast & common enough to find a good one to start with..." Add to that being a blast to drive, I think a proper swb 911 will gain in attention among many committed Porsche enthusiasts, old & new.
Perhaps not quite the investment opportunity of 356s (older & fewer remaining), but definitely something for the 911 enthusiast who invests his labor... & in the end might not even lose much money.
just my thoughts... cheers!
12-13-2008, 10:20 PM
#11
12-13-2008, 10:32 PM
#12
Which brings us to your question of the swb 911 (& perhaps its appeal to Brett). These were the lightest & most "dynamic" of the 911s - talk about tto & rotation! Their design weaknesses were overcome over the years - you can just about cram a 930 suspension & drivetrain under one, if you really want... As to history, the first iteration of a style that becomes successful will always appeal, will always be in some demand. Pre-A 356s have experienced that trend, whether museum-concours or outlaw. And of course, the early 911 continued & then vastly expanded the dual-purpose racing heritage of the 356. So what's not to like?
Seems to me that the 356s are coming down in price, just like everything else in the current economy... but not by alot, esp for very good to excellent examples. Meanwhile, swb 911s had only just begun to see a rise in general interest & value (of course, excellent survivors or historically important ones have always been in demand). People had figured out how to make them right, & how much fun they are to drive. Vintage racing in the under 2.5 L class became a 911 playground. Yet it was not yet a commercial biz case - too much labor, too few good examples (crashes, rust, poor/defered maintainence) & too much time to completion. Now, there is not much of a business case for the pros to focus on survivor swb 911s. When the economy returns, there MAY be a refocus on the early cars as "modern enough to drive & maintain, cheap enough for the middle class enthusiast & common enough to find a good one to start with..." Add to that being a blast to drive, I think a proper swb 911 will gain in attention among many committed Porsche enthusiasts, old & new.
Perhaps not quite the investment opportunity of 356s (older & fewer remaining), but definitely something for the 911 enthusiast who invests his labor... & in the end might not even lose much money.
just my thoughts... cheers!
Seems to me that the 356s are coming down in price, just like everything else in the current economy... but not by alot, esp for very good to excellent examples. Meanwhile, swb 911s had only just begun to see a rise in general interest & value (of course, excellent survivors or historically important ones have always been in demand). People had figured out how to make them right, & how much fun they are to drive. Vintage racing in the under 2.5 L class became a 911 playground. Yet it was not yet a commercial biz case - too much labor, too few good examples (crashes, rust, poor/defered maintainence) & too much time to completion. Now, there is not much of a business case for the pros to focus on survivor swb 911s. When the economy returns, there MAY be a refocus on the early cars as "modern enough to drive & maintain, cheap enough for the middle class enthusiast & common enough to find a good one to start with..." Add to that being a blast to drive, I think a proper swb 911 will gain in attention among many committed Porsche enthusiasts, old & new.
Perhaps not quite the investment opportunity of 356s (older & fewer remaining), but definitely something for the 911 enthusiast who invests his labor... & in the end might not even lose much money.
just my thoughts... cheers!
BTW, does anyone watch the show, "Chasing Classic Cars." In a recent one, Wayne Carini, bought an excellent original 66 model for $60,000 (or was it $65,000) then tried to sell it at auction with an $80,000 reserve. It didn't make it topping out in the mid 60's if I recall correctly. I believe it's still advertised on his web site.
Brett
12-14-2008, 01:23 AM
#14
Drifting
Brett,
If car needs a full resto than it has to be a project for your heart. The SWB 911's have gained a real following over the last few years so these have gained in value. Keep in mind they are not building these anymore if car is solid and price is right I would buy it.
Phil
If car needs a full resto than it has to be a project for your heart. The SWB 911's have gained a real following over the last few years so these have gained in value. Keep in mind they are not building these anymore if car is solid and price is right I would buy it.
Phil
12-14-2008, 11:57 AM
#15
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putting too much thought into things is about the kindest criticism I ever get.
& yeah, in a swb, one might have to cachet a little quicker...
I agree the swb cars will not supplant the long-nose / lwb ones in absolute valuation, but going forward from the future economic recovery, they may show greater gain in % value increase compared to the later early models. on the other hand, I've noticed lotsa '69-'73.5 911Ts for sale lately, I think there may be some deals through '09 (at the rate things are going) - for those w/ handy cash.
I suppose one of the most important aspects of the swb 901 chassis cars is that they are desirable as pristine survivors AND highly modified "to taste". all the knowledge, parts & procedures developed in the restoration, cloning & competition of the RS clones, R-gruppe, outlaws & related trends in recent years can be tapped in rebuilding & tuning a very vintage 911 just the way one wishes.
hope you get a chance to examine the car on a lift - mechanical components, floorpan & chassis condition beneath can reveal the true condition of an old car - even more than an owner is aware.
& yeah, in a swb, one might have to cachet a little quicker...
I agree the swb cars will not supplant the long-nose / lwb ones in absolute valuation, but going forward from the future economic recovery, they may show greater gain in % value increase compared to the later early models. on the other hand, I've noticed lotsa '69-'73.5 911Ts for sale lately, I think there may be some deals through '09 (at the rate things are going) - for those w/ handy cash.
I suppose one of the most important aspects of the swb 901 chassis cars is that they are desirable as pristine survivors AND highly modified "to taste". all the knowledge, parts & procedures developed in the restoration, cloning & competition of the RS clones, R-gruppe, outlaws & related trends in recent years can be tapped in rebuilding & tuning a very vintage 911 just the way one wishes.
hope you get a chance to examine the car on a lift - mechanical components, floorpan & chassis condition beneath can reveal the true condition of an old car - even more than an owner is aware.