911 or 964???
11-22-2008, 11:07 PM
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911 or 964???
Hello all. I have been reading on your site for awhile now and love it! Now I figure it is time to ask the important question............911 or 964?
Been looking at a few of each, and now that my s2000 is gone it is time to buy my dream car!
Looking to stay around $20000, manual and a coupe.
Any tips or advise from you pros is very appreciated!
Been looking at a few of each, and now that my s2000 is gone it is time to buy my dream car!
Looking to stay around $20000, manual and a coupe.
Any tips or advise from you pros is very appreciated!
11-22-2008, 11:25 PM
#2
Instructor
OK... I'll bite.
As you probably know already, there are a variety of opinions here, so you might try searching and reading the old discussions on this forum dealing with 911/964. Buy Peter Zimmermann's book, "The Used 911 Story." Once you have some background, you will be able to focus your questions so folks here can be of more help.
As you probably know already, there are a variety of opinions here, so you might try searching and reading the old discussions on this forum dealing with 911/964. Buy Peter Zimmermann's book, "The Used 911 Story." Once you have some background, you will be able to focus your questions so folks here can be of more help.
11-22-2008, 11:44 PM
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That's kind of a tough question - for me it boiled down to falling in love with the mystique of the earlier models. The 964's are excellent I'm sure (never owned one), but the 911's grabbed me before 964's were around. I am over simplifying, but it might be like asking what is better, choc or vanilla.
Figure out what characteristics you want in a car and what it is you like & dislike about models you mentioned, check them both out and choose your own road.
I was/am biased, I always wanted a 911 because anything later wasn't as "original" - not to slam later models.
I guess the question is, why do 911 folks like 911's, and ditto for 964's and their owners, then see what sways you.
I'm a real help, ain't I?
good luck and happy hunting.
Figure out what characteristics you want in a car and what it is you like & dislike about models you mentioned, check them both out and choose your own road.
I was/am biased, I always wanted a 911 because anything later wasn't as "original" - not to slam later models.
I guess the question is, why do 911 folks like 911's, and ditto for 964's and their owners, then see what sways you.
I'm a real help, ain't I?
good luck and happy hunting.
11-23-2008, 12:05 AM
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My first p-car was a 993, which is a great car. After buying my SC, though, I really liked the feel and sound of the older car and sold the 993 about a year later. The newer cars (incl 964) are faster, smoother, quieter, have power steering, better-working AC, etc. but again once I got the taste of the 911 I was hooked. In my non-p-car I like smoother, quieter, etc. but want my sports car to be a sports car. My $.02, good luck w/ your purchase.
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11-23-2008, 12:46 AM
#8
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For what it's worth... I started looking for either an 87-89 911 for the G50, or a 964. I ended up with an '89 911 since it was the one that fit all my criteria, was the right price, and was for sale. Folks here will tell you to be patient and take your time. The more cars you look at, the more you will know when the right one shows up.
11-23-2008, 12:54 AM
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For what it's worth... I started looking for either an 87-89 911 for the G50, or a 964. I ended up with an '89 911 since it was the one that fit all my criteria, was the right price, and was for sale. Folks here will tell you to be patient and take your time. The more cars you look at, the more you will know when the right one shows up.
11-23-2008, 01:37 AM
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With the 964 models (particularly the 4s) their complexity grew significantly,--as did their power and other refinements.
You can certainly get a basic 964 for $20,000 that is in reasonable shape, or get a Carrera 3.2 from 1987 to 1989 and have some spare chance to do with as you will ultimately need to sort out issues that the current owner ignored.
I predict that the "classic" Porsche 911 that everyone will lust after will boil down to the 1987, 1988, and 1989 models (not the Carrera 4 based on the 964 in 1989).
It was the pinnicle of the 911 design in many minds.
You can certainly get a basic 964 for $20,000 that is in reasonable shape, or get a Carrera 3.2 from 1987 to 1989 and have some spare chance to do with as you will ultimately need to sort out issues that the current owner ignored.
I predict that the "classic" Porsche 911 that everyone will lust after will boil down to the 1987, 1988, and 1989 models (not the Carrera 4 based on the 964 in 1989).
It was the pinnicle of the 911 design in many minds.
11-23-2008, 02:25 AM
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Hi folks, I'm more or less at that juncture now. Essentially, I had the same question, 911 vs 964. I read everything I could get my hands on eventually eliminating the 964 NOT based on anything I read, (although the earlier ones '89-91 did have some red flags to avoid) but rather on what some respondants have boiled down to "preference".
You have to love the choice you make and that's predicated to some extent on emotional, visceral 'feelings.' One can't explain why they may like the colour blue anymore than red or pizza over tacos. The simple answer is the one you like the best it the best car for you.
Lets say you pick 911 Carrera 3.2: Then the hard questions begin. 915 vs G50 gearbox, sport or no sport (read whaletail, etc), turbo-look or narrow body, cheap high-miler if you're a DIY'er (I'm not) vs money-no-object, low-miles, right interior colour, "it'll-take-me-2-years-to-source-the-car-in-El Paso" approach. This happens to be my approach as the arrival of my first child in Feb/09 makes me believe that this is the right answer. Funny how you can convince yourself of nearly damn anything when it comes to Porsches.
Until then my 997C4S will keep me happy, but it'll be a happy day for you and me both, Kallberg, when we "see" our new old 911 first. Happy hunting.
You have to love the choice you make and that's predicated to some extent on emotional, visceral 'feelings.' One can't explain why they may like the colour blue anymore than red or pizza over tacos. The simple answer is the one you like the best it the best car for you.
Lets say you pick 911 Carrera 3.2: Then the hard questions begin. 915 vs G50 gearbox, sport or no sport (read whaletail, etc), turbo-look or narrow body, cheap high-miler if you're a DIY'er (I'm not) vs money-no-object, low-miles, right interior colour, "it'll-take-me-2-years-to-source-the-car-in-El Paso" approach. This happens to be my approach as the arrival of my first child in Feb/09 makes me believe that this is the right answer. Funny how you can convince yourself of nearly damn anything when it comes to Porsches.
Until then my 997C4S will keep me happy, but it'll be a happy day for you and me both, Kallberg, when we "see" our new old 911 first. Happy hunting.
11-23-2008, 09:36 AM
#12
Well, lets not forget about your budget!
20k will get you an excellent g50 coupe, and a not so great 964. At least thats what I noticed from my hunt with a 20k budget. Set aside 25k for an excellent 964.
20k will get you an excellent g50 coupe, and a not so great 964. At least thats what I noticed from my hunt with a 20k budget. Set aside 25k for an excellent 964.
11-23-2008, 12:13 PM
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lotsa threads on this common topic - search.
along the lines of Dan's observations, a breakdown of 911 evolution runs along these lines...
- '65-'68 (long nose / swb): the original 911 type, iconic shape & concept, worthy & successful replacement for the 356. made Porsche THE sports car company for anyone anywhere anytime. also had numerous problems - some feel it went to market too soon, also has classic rust problems. started the 911's fantastic competition record. all the issues were / can be addressed (lessons learned & later model upgrades). these years in good shape & well sorted have become popular, but they are expensive to restore. a high revving motor in a short swb chassis w/ narrow tires makes for excitement (I know, a friend's Dad had one while we were in HS - I'm lucky to br alive).
- '69-'73 (long nose / lwb). properly evolved; more motor, better handling (longer whlbase), upgrades to nearly all systems. the 911RS (not available in US back in the day) is a high water mark in the history of sports/GT cars. the T, E, & S ain't so bad either. (having owned 2 & just driven a friend's fully restored '73S, I can attest to just how wonderful these cars are - light, precise, quick, fast, comfortable, visceral... one could go on). still, there is rust & refurb / restoration cost - beware!
- '74-'77 (mid-yr / safety bumpers). what can be said about these that ISN'T controversial? Porsche faces US safety & EPA regs & survives - barely. Galvanized chassis & panels are rolled out, yr by yr - did I mention rust issues on the early cars? FI becomes std on all models, problems w/ engines... these are often felt to be the best deals because they are the lowest prices - for good reason. however, a good example having issues corrected can be a fine 911, just like any MY. I only recommend these to people who are experienced 911 owners & like to wrench on their own cars (A close friend, rest his soul, had one of these & had NO problems - he had a touch w/ Porsches).
- '78-'89 (classic era). I lump the 3.0 SCs w/ the 3.2 Carreras because they are fundamentally so similar, and to feed arguments in detail over their distinctions, which is a good way to learn about all 911s. 11 yrs of the best-driving, easiest to buy & own sports cars ever made (did I already say that?). By now, Porsche got their development processes right & better understood how to make cake & eat it too on safety & EPA regs (thanks Bosch!). I took care of a friend's '78 Targa from new & I now own an '87 Coupe - a real testament to engineering excellence & thorough development. These are the 911s that will be with us forever as daily drivers. In this period, Porsche attempted to replace the 911 w/ the 928/924-944 family - the cost of production for the 911, "built right", almost put PAG in bankruptcy. maybe that's why they are so damn good (+ being the last hand-assembled).
- 964: Mostly new, lotsa refinement all-at-once, bigger engine, heavier, somewhat controversial styling. Issues w/ motor & clutch that have / can be resolved. Personally, I find them ponderous, but a fine source for 3.6 engines. Some special models like the RS are very nice, 4WD was introduced, along w/ Tip - I hear they've got them sorted on the current models. Check the 964 forum for their pov, which is probably more even-handed than mine (really, they are great cars - drive some & decide for yourself).
- 993: Very refined (esp suspension) - the last of the air-oil cooled 911s. Great looking, can still be maintained by the home mechanic - if he is skilled, prepared & enjoys the effort. Of course, also had / has its issues. Some nifty variants like the C2S & C4S. A fitting close to the era of Porsche when Ferry was still around.
In addition to Pete's book, Leffingwell's Buyer's Guide is a useful yr-by-yr review, & I highly recommend Frere's "Porsche 911 Story" to any buyer / owner. Seek out owners who will allow you to drive their cars (good luck! - maybe via PCA chapter) - driving nice examples crystallizes everything. jeez... I can't believe I wrote all this, hope it's useful.
It is cold out & a 911 likes cold air... I think I'll go for a drive...
Happy Hunting!
along the lines of Dan's observations, a breakdown of 911 evolution runs along these lines...
- '65-'68 (long nose / swb): the original 911 type, iconic shape & concept, worthy & successful replacement for the 356. made Porsche THE sports car company for anyone anywhere anytime. also had numerous problems - some feel it went to market too soon, also has classic rust problems. started the 911's fantastic competition record. all the issues were / can be addressed (lessons learned & later model upgrades). these years in good shape & well sorted have become popular, but they are expensive to restore. a high revving motor in a short swb chassis w/ narrow tires makes for excitement (I know, a friend's Dad had one while we were in HS - I'm lucky to br alive).
- '69-'73 (long nose / lwb). properly evolved; more motor, better handling (longer whlbase), upgrades to nearly all systems. the 911RS (not available in US back in the day) is a high water mark in the history of sports/GT cars. the T, E, & S ain't so bad either. (having owned 2 & just driven a friend's fully restored '73S, I can attest to just how wonderful these cars are - light, precise, quick, fast, comfortable, visceral... one could go on). still, there is rust & refurb / restoration cost - beware!
- '74-'77 (mid-yr / safety bumpers). what can be said about these that ISN'T controversial? Porsche faces US safety & EPA regs & survives - barely. Galvanized chassis & panels are rolled out, yr by yr - did I mention rust issues on the early cars? FI becomes std on all models, problems w/ engines... these are often felt to be the best deals because they are the lowest prices - for good reason. however, a good example having issues corrected can be a fine 911, just like any MY. I only recommend these to people who are experienced 911 owners & like to wrench on their own cars (A close friend, rest his soul, had one of these & had NO problems - he had a touch w/ Porsches).
- '78-'89 (classic era). I lump the 3.0 SCs w/ the 3.2 Carreras because they are fundamentally so similar, and to feed arguments in detail over their distinctions, which is a good way to learn about all 911s. 11 yrs of the best-driving, easiest to buy & own sports cars ever made (did I already say that?). By now, Porsche got their development processes right & better understood how to make cake & eat it too on safety & EPA regs (thanks Bosch!). I took care of a friend's '78 Targa from new & I now own an '87 Coupe - a real testament to engineering excellence & thorough development. These are the 911s that will be with us forever as daily drivers. In this period, Porsche attempted to replace the 911 w/ the 928/924-944 family - the cost of production for the 911, "built right", almost put PAG in bankruptcy. maybe that's why they are so damn good (+ being the last hand-assembled).
- 964: Mostly new, lotsa refinement all-at-once, bigger engine, heavier, somewhat controversial styling. Issues w/ motor & clutch that have / can be resolved. Personally, I find them ponderous, but a fine source for 3.6 engines. Some special models like the RS are very nice, 4WD was introduced, along w/ Tip - I hear they've got them sorted on the current models. Check the 964 forum for their pov, which is probably more even-handed than mine (really, they are great cars - drive some & decide for yourself).
- 993: Very refined (esp suspension) - the last of the air-oil cooled 911s. Great looking, can still be maintained by the home mechanic - if he is skilled, prepared & enjoys the effort. Of course, also had / has its issues. Some nifty variants like the C2S & C4S. A fitting close to the era of Porsche when Ferry was still around.
In addition to Pete's book, Leffingwell's Buyer's Guide is a useful yr-by-yr review, & I highly recommend Frere's "Porsche 911 Story" to any buyer / owner. Seek out owners who will allow you to drive their cars (good luck! - maybe via PCA chapter) - driving nice examples crystallizes everything. jeez... I can't believe I wrote all this, hope it's useful.
It is cold out & a 911 likes cold air... I think I'll go for a drive...
Happy Hunting!
11-23-2008, 03:39 PM
#15
2quick makes a good point. You'll probalby need $25k to get a decent 964. That $25k can be spend in two ways...buy a good one right off the bat or buy a not so good one and spend quite a bit to get it right.
I have a 1990 964, a 1984 3.2 Carrera and an '02 Boxster. The 3.2 Carrera is my daily driver during the driving season and I've owned the 964 for 8 years (the 986 goes year 'round). The 964 is definitely a bit more comfortable as far as daily driving goes and it's tangibly quicker. Lots more torque out of the 3.6 in the 964. The 964 feels like a modern car where as the 3.2's and earlier are definitely getting to feel like antique cars.
Both cars are fun to drive, but you have to push the 964 harder to have fun where as the 3.2 is great even at low speeds. Find a nice 911 (whether it's a 1965 or a 2009) and you'll find that these things go down the road like a million bucks when they are set up right.
Keep in mind that if your budget is $20k, you should be looking at $16,000 to $18,000 cars since any car you bring home will have issues. Even cars with full records, good upkeep and nice cosmetics have stuff that needs to be addressed. Age is taking it's toll and many people have forgotten how tight these cars were when new and it takes a bit of coin to get everthing back up to 'as new' in how a 911 should feel.
Parts are expensive and shop rates are really getting up there. Clutch replacements are $2500 to $3000, A/C repairs can add up to $2000 in a hurry, suspension rebuilds are $5000 or more (if you do it all OEM and correctly), transmission rebuilds are $3500 or more and motor rebuilds are $10k (if you can find a shop that will rebuild this stuff correctly). Stuff that is made of rubber needs to be replaced now at this age regardless of mileage. There is a lot of rubber bushings in the suspension, oil hoses, A/C hoses, etc.
Good luck!
Jay
02 986
90 964
84 3.2
I have a 1990 964, a 1984 3.2 Carrera and an '02 Boxster. The 3.2 Carrera is my daily driver during the driving season and I've owned the 964 for 8 years (the 986 goes year 'round). The 964 is definitely a bit more comfortable as far as daily driving goes and it's tangibly quicker. Lots more torque out of the 3.6 in the 964. The 964 feels like a modern car where as the 3.2's and earlier are definitely getting to feel like antique cars.
Both cars are fun to drive, but you have to push the 964 harder to have fun where as the 3.2 is great even at low speeds. Find a nice 911 (whether it's a 1965 or a 2009) and you'll find that these things go down the road like a million bucks when they are set up right.
Keep in mind that if your budget is $20k, you should be looking at $16,000 to $18,000 cars since any car you bring home will have issues. Even cars with full records, good upkeep and nice cosmetics have stuff that needs to be addressed. Age is taking it's toll and many people have forgotten how tight these cars were when new and it takes a bit of coin to get everthing back up to 'as new' in how a 911 should feel.
Parts are expensive and shop rates are really getting up there. Clutch replacements are $2500 to $3000, A/C repairs can add up to $2000 in a hurry, suspension rebuilds are $5000 or more (if you do it all OEM and correctly), transmission rebuilds are $3500 or more and motor rebuilds are $10k (if you can find a shop that will rebuild this stuff correctly). Stuff that is made of rubber needs to be replaced now at this age regardless of mileage. There is a lot of rubber bushings in the suspension, oil hoses, A/C hoses, etc.
Good luck!
Jay
02 986
90 964
84 3.2