American Ingenuity Trumps Porsche Questionable Designs
11-10-2008, 11:38 PM
#17
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I don't think we would debate that statement. Porsche makes more money on money than Detroit does on cars collectively. I'm glad Weissach needs a hobby though
11-11-2008, 12:36 PM
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We all know that the Germans are pretty good in the design and manufacturing of bikes and cars, and the FW and Trimotor, and Messerschmitts were astounding for the time. Porsche is a case in point. Some great wagons have been designed by the Porsche folks. PUN
However, today I got some more learning about American engineering that makes the problematic German engineering functional. No, not what us smart guys own, the SC and Carrera, but the troubled Boxster and 996 and elderly 914.
I understand this may be out of whack for the 911 discussion, however, I want to say that the more I learn, the more our cars justify the respect.
So to the chase, there was a 1999 996 in SF for $12,000 with a bad engine. Then there was another 1999 is L.A. for $8000. I set up a look see for this car and went on the information hunt. Here is what made my day a happy one. I talked to 3 facilities today and got splendid information about parts, special tools, and repair work from all of them. The 2nd person, Charles at LN Engineering gave me the # of Jake Raby in Georgia. I had heard of Raby, and I now look forward to reading about him in the December issue of Excellence Magazine. I talked to him and learned how he has overcome the 914, Boxster and 996. Dynos, special tool manufacture(like to put the piston pin clips in inside and at the far end of the thing), repair kits, schools, builder, designer, engineer. This is another case where American need is met by American smarts, and another fellow citizen we are fortunate to have.
However, for those who own the aircooled 911, I again say, it sure does make sense.
Oh, the guy with the 996 called as I was leaving my driveway to go see the car. He wanted to rethink his situation about selling the car. GREAT NEWS for me cause I think I would have bought it.
A very happy day indeed.
However, today I got some more learning about American engineering that makes the problematic German engineering functional. No, not what us smart guys own, the SC and Carrera, but the troubled Boxster and 996 and elderly 914.
I understand this may be out of whack for the 911 discussion, however, I want to say that the more I learn, the more our cars justify the respect.
So to the chase, there was a 1999 996 in SF for $12,000 with a bad engine. Then there was another 1999 is L.A. for $8000. I set up a look see for this car and went on the information hunt. Here is what made my day a happy one. I talked to 3 facilities today and got splendid information about parts, special tools, and repair work from all of them. The 2nd person, Charles at LN Engineering gave me the # of Jake Raby in Georgia. I had heard of Raby, and I now look forward to reading about him in the December issue of Excellence Magazine. I talked to him and learned how he has overcome the 914, Boxster and 996. Dynos, special tool manufacture(like to put the piston pin clips in inside and at the far end of the thing), repair kits, schools, builder, designer, engineer. This is another case where American need is met by American smarts, and another fellow citizen we are fortunate to have.
However, for those who own the aircooled 911, I again say, it sure does make sense.
Oh, the guy with the 996 called as I was leaving my driveway to go see the car. He wanted to rethink his situation about selling the car. GREAT NEWS for me cause I think I would have bought it.
A very happy day indeed.
You DO realize that there are others out there- fellows like Peter Dawe, Sam S, etc. that figured out the water engines LONG before Raby even owned one?And that Porsche themselves had solutions to most if not all of the problems as well. Im not taking anything away from the mans talent, drive, and business savvy- but there are are no secrets to making an M96 engine "last" that havent been figured out some time ago. In my everyday world there is always someone with claims of having figured out this transmission issue or that engine solution and are the only ones out there with this specialized information. I have almost invariably found that while there may be some innovative or trick component, there is no magic, no secret recipe, just simple good mechanic-ing and methodical process. I myself build high-performance turbo/EFI systems every day and there is nothing special about what I do, no real trade secrets, nothing that anyone else who did the work, the research, and paid a little attention could not do just as well, and I firmly believe anyone portraying themselves as being able to do something that no one else can do is most likely a charlatan selling snake oil.
Don Walker, Horsepower Research and Development
11-12-2008, 07:59 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
I firmly believe anyone portraying themselves as being able to do something that no one else can do is most likely a charlatan selling snake oil
I take what I do seriously and strive to learn things that others haven't and then apply them in ways that others wouldn't.
I have to question the intent of a fellow engine specialist when he goes out of his way to make negative posts about what I do, how I do it and why. Noted.
We have received hundreds of kudos concerning our efforts that were recognized in the Excellence article, but there is always that 10% of people that for some reason find it important to go out of their way to make a negative comment, but usually thats not another professional. (because its not very professional conduct)
And just to clarify a point:
We are specializing in the M96 engine- Not the Boxster as a unit: No Boxster was necessary for the first 2.5 years of our development work.
11-13-2008, 12:57 AM
#21
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You DO realize that there are others out there- fellows like Peter Dawe, Sam S, etc. that figured out the water engines LONG before Raby even owned one?And that Porsche themselves had solutions to most if not all of the problems as well. Im not taking anything away from the mans talent, drive, and business savvy- but there are are no secrets to making an M96 engine "last" that havent been figured out some time ago. In my everyday world there is always someone with claims of having figured out this transmission issue or that engine solution and are the only ones out there with this specialized information. I have almost invariably found that while there may be some innovative or trick component, there is no magic, no secret recipe, just simple good mechanic-ing and methodical process. I myself build high-performance turbo/EFI systems every day and there is nothing special about what I do, no real trade secrets, nothing that anyone else who did the work, the research, and paid a little attention could not do just as well, and I firmly believe anyone portraying themselves as being able to do something that no one else can do is most likely a charlatan selling snake oil.
Don Walker, Horsepower Research and Development
Don Walker, Horsepower Research and Development
11-13-2008, 11:00 AM
#22
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I never portrayed myself in any fashion even close to what you have mentioned.
I take what I do seriously and strive to learn things that others haven't and then apply them in ways that others wouldn't.
I have to question the intent of a fellow engine specialist when he goes out of his way to make negative posts about what I do, how I do it and why. Noted.
We have received hundreds of kudos concerning our efforts that were recognized in the Excellence article, but there is always that 10% of people that for some reason find it important to go out of their way to make a negative comment, but usually thats not another professional. (because its not very professional conduct)
And just to clarify a point:
We are specializing in the M96 engine- Not the Boxster as a unit: No Boxster was necessary for the first 2.5 years of our development work.
I take what I do seriously and strive to learn things that others haven't and then apply them in ways that others wouldn't.
I have to question the intent of a fellow engine specialist when he goes out of his way to make negative posts about what I do, how I do it and why. Noted.
We have received hundreds of kudos concerning our efforts that were recognized in the Excellence article, but there is always that 10% of people that for some reason find it important to go out of their way to make a negative comment, but usually thats not another professional. (because its not very professional conduct)
And just to clarify a point:
We are specializing in the M96 engine- Not the Boxster as a unit: No Boxster was necessary for the first 2.5 years of our development work.
To be clear my snake oil comment was not directed specifically at you or anything you have said, as I did completely read your website long before this post was made.
11-13-2008, 11:18 AM
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Where did this come from Don? Charlatan? Snake Oil? Is there someone else out there in the US trying to fix the M96 engine? If so, what are they doing? Do you have anything you would like to share? If my 996 or 986 torpedoes tomorrow, would you suggest I buy a remanufactured engine from a Porsche dealer? Maybe I could replace it with a small block Chevy engine. Should I go with a push rod. Would an LS1 fit? I'm really confused now and I thought we were making progress???
Porsche did not encourage engine repair or rebuilding and you could not even buy an engine gasket kit in this country. In fact, to get gasket kits for some of the early water transplants (M96 engine into 911 air chassis) I know certian engine builders who went through quite a bit of trouble to aquire the gaskets from sources in Germany and have them shipped here.
Currently, there are several good engine builders who can rebuild your M96 engine should it fail. Oddly, it is likely to be cheaper to buy a brand new engine from Porsche that comes with a nice warranty than to have an engine rebuilt.Hard to believe, but Porsches price for a complete ready to go powerplant is extremely good value.
The determination IMHO between having an engine built and simply buying a brand new one is simple. If you are modifying the engine, using power adders, tracking the car often, or simply want a "built" engine, then the added expense of having an engine rebuilt may be justified. However, if your car is stock, you do not do more than the occasional DE, then the added expense of a rebuilt engine simply isnt worth it.
Now, Im not sure where the Chevy swap stuff came in, but even as a born-and-raised Tennessee hilljack I simply cannot condone non-Porsche engine swaps. It even pains me to see VW engines in 356's, let alone chebby V-6 or V-8's into 911's, 944's, etc. If you really want a Camaro, just go buy a Camaro. I hear they come with a free mullet.
11-13-2008, 03:48 PM
#24
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I wasnt aware you could buy a reman M96 from the dealer, only brand new engines. I am aware that in the early days of the M96 program Porsche specifically did NOT allow the dealer to even autopsy a failed engine. If an engine failed it was completely replaced and the damaged unit was crated and shipped back to Germany.
Porsche did not encourage engine repair or rebuilding and you could not even buy an engine gasket kit in this country. In fact, to get gasket kits for some of the early water transplants (M96 engine into 911 air chassis) I know certian engine builders who went through quite a bit of trouble to aquire the gaskets from sources in Germany and have them shipped here.
Currently, there are several good engine builders who can rebuild your M96 engine should it fail. Oddly, it is likely to be cheaper to buy a brand new engine from Porsche that comes with a nice warranty than to have an engine rebuilt.Hard to believe, but Porsches price for a complete ready to go powerplant is extremely good value.
The determination IMHO between having an engine built and simply buying a brand new one is simple. If you are modifying the engine, using power adders, tracking the car often, or simply want a "built" engine, then the added expense of having an engine rebuilt may be justified. However, if your car is stock, you do not do more than the occasional DE, then the added expense of a rebuilt engine simply isnt worth it.
Now, Im not sure where the Chevy swap stuff came in, but even as a born-and-raised Tennessee hilljack I simply cannot condone non-Porsche engine swaps. It even pains me to see VW engines in 356's, let alone chebby V-6 or V-8's into 911's, 944's, etc. If you really want a Camaro, just go buy a Camaro. I hear they come with a free mullet.
Porsche did not encourage engine repair or rebuilding and you could not even buy an engine gasket kit in this country. In fact, to get gasket kits for some of the early water transplants (M96 engine into 911 air chassis) I know certian engine builders who went through quite a bit of trouble to aquire the gaskets from sources in Germany and have them shipped here.
Currently, there are several good engine builders who can rebuild your M96 engine should it fail. Oddly, it is likely to be cheaper to buy a brand new engine from Porsche that comes with a nice warranty than to have an engine rebuilt.Hard to believe, but Porsches price for a complete ready to go powerplant is extremely good value.
The determination IMHO between having an engine built and simply buying a brand new one is simple. If you are modifying the engine, using power adders, tracking the car often, or simply want a "built" engine, then the added expense of having an engine rebuilt may be justified. However, if your car is stock, you do not do more than the occasional DE, then the added expense of a rebuilt engine simply isnt worth it.
Now, Im not sure where the Chevy swap stuff came in, but even as a born-and-raised Tennessee hilljack I simply cannot condone non-Porsche engine swaps. It even pains me to see VW engines in 356's, let alone chebby V-6 or V-8's into 911's, 944's, etc. If you really want a Camaro, just go buy a Camaro. I hear they come with a free mullet.
I believe the engines that Porsche ships back for replacements are remanufactured by Porsche using the cores from previous unlucky owners. I could be wrong about that, but I got the information from an independent mechanic who has done a few replacements. If Porsche is manufacturing all brand new M96 engines every month I suppose there will be a glut on raw materials pretty soon in Germany, or they could use the castings to build Audi's or VWs I guess.
I am no engine specialist, but I respect a mans work, any mans work, especially one who pours his energy and intellect into it, way too much to even use the words charlatan and snake oil in a sentence or a breath referencing the fruits of his labor. They taught me that in Morristown, Tn. granted, I left there after high school in 1971, but my guess is.... they still feel that way.
11-13-2008, 05:27 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
I was always taught that if something good can't be said that I shouldn't say anything at all and I do my best to live by that.
BTW- Those issues related to parts sourcing is why we have made our own damn parts. I'll beg Porsche for nothing when the same part can be made in the USA for the same or less money and I keep an American employed.
We have even made our own head gaskets for the big bore conversions, our own fasteners for the IMS and flywheel and our own connecting rods- But what we do isn't special and there are no "tricks" or "industry secrets" surrounding it.
Thats the freakin understatement of the Millenium.
Dwalker: No need to send me a PM, I have your number. (I have also added you to my ignore list)
BTW- Those issues related to parts sourcing is why we have made our own damn parts. I'll beg Porsche for nothing when the same part can be made in the USA for the same or less money and I keep an American employed.
We have even made our own head gaskets for the big bore conversions, our own fasteners for the IMS and flywheel and our own connecting rods- But what we do isn't special and there are no "tricks" or "industry secrets" surrounding it.
Thats the freakin understatement of the Millenium.
Dwalker: No need to send me a PM, I have your number. (I have also added you to my ignore list)
Last edited by Jake Raby; 11-13-2008 at 07:17 PM.
11-13-2008, 07:50 PM
#26
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To: ---------------Jake Raby/-----------All others
From: Barry Taylor
Re: Post regarding 996 engines
Jake, let me express my regret to you and any others that may have been offended by my bringing up the 996 engine and your skills and expert achievement in that area. As you may remember, I called you because I was going to look at a 996 with oil in the water with the purpose of buying it for $8000. That failed the same day with a change of mind by the seller. I did want to share the details of my information that I had acquired regarding options of dealing with a 996 engine. My discussions with others who have driven the car hard indicate that it a SUPER car that is way more car than most drivers. My intent is to own one with or without engine issues, at some point in time.
I stated you were involved with the 914 and Boxster as well as the 996. The Boxster information did not come from our discussion. I do not remember where I had heard that information. If it is incorrect you have my apology. No harm was intended.
Regarding Porsche automobiles. I have owned some nine or ten(maybe eleven) 356. 911, and 912 and they are my favorite car. I respect those who own a 996 and hope to own one myself.
In my discussion with you, Mr Raby, I asked and listened carefully. I absorbed the input regarding your background of working on turbine engines for the Marines. Having built a few piston aircraft engines that I flew behind, I appreciate the turbine man. I also listened carefully to your shop description and the equipment and the broad area you were covering in the 996 area. From rebuild with a dyno run in- to parts and special tool making-to educational materials and classes. ---- I think that is what I heard, I hope I got it right.
If I got this right, then from my background of having built a couple of car engines and motorcycle racing engines that got me a few first and second places, and having met some decent names in the engine world, I wanted to express my respect for you and what you are doing.
To any and all other engine men, I had no intent to excluding those that I was not aware of. I heard no bad information about anyone. This was a 48 hour event in my life, not something that I had spent years at. To any and all of you, we are lucky to have you to keep our iron on the road. God bless you all.
From: Barry Taylor
Re: Post regarding 996 engines
Jake, let me express my regret to you and any others that may have been offended by my bringing up the 996 engine and your skills and expert achievement in that area. As you may remember, I called you because I was going to look at a 996 with oil in the water with the purpose of buying it for $8000. That failed the same day with a change of mind by the seller. I did want to share the details of my information that I had acquired regarding options of dealing with a 996 engine. My discussions with others who have driven the car hard indicate that it a SUPER car that is way more car than most drivers. My intent is to own one with or without engine issues, at some point in time.
I stated you were involved with the 914 and Boxster as well as the 996. The Boxster information did not come from our discussion. I do not remember where I had heard that information. If it is incorrect you have my apology. No harm was intended.
Regarding Porsche automobiles. I have owned some nine or ten(maybe eleven) 356. 911, and 912 and they are my favorite car. I respect those who own a 996 and hope to own one myself.
In my discussion with you, Mr Raby, I asked and listened carefully. I absorbed the input regarding your background of working on turbine engines for the Marines. Having built a few piston aircraft engines that I flew behind, I appreciate the turbine man. I also listened carefully to your shop description and the equipment and the broad area you were covering in the 996 area. From rebuild with a dyno run in- to parts and special tool making-to educational materials and classes. ---- I think that is what I heard, I hope I got it right.
If I got this right, then from my background of having built a couple of car engines and motorcycle racing engines that got me a few first and second places, and having met some decent names in the engine world, I wanted to express my respect for you and what you are doing.
To any and all other engine men, I had no intent to excluding those that I was not aware of. I heard no bad information about anyone. This was a 48 hour event in my life, not something that I had spent years at. To any and all of you, we are lucky to have you to keep our iron on the road. God bless you all.
Last edited by jakeflyer; 11-13-2008 at 08:15 PM.
11-13-2008, 10:15 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
jakeflyer,
You are guilty of nothing more than the crime of enthusiasm.. What I mean by this is simple:
When people hear or see something not previously heard or seen and it just happens to be related to something they enjoy (Porsches for you) its really easy to become over joyed and want to share that with others.
What you can't forecast before making an enthusiastic post like the original one in this thread, is how that'll be accepted by the pessimists that may be reading the post that will spend minutes or hours trying to either prove you wrong or just start drama- all done to bring your enthusiasm level back down to theirs. Some do it because they are jealous and some do it because they have nothing else to do and every now and then someone does it just because they are a jack ***.
So, you did nothing wrong- not at all. I appreciate your post here and I appreciate that you understand what we are doing and how we are doing it.
The people that lack the confidence in what they do shouldn't be doing it AND unless what they are doing isn't "special" to them don't expect to get the most for your money.
(Sorry for the rant- I just have little tolerance for those in my line of work that are along for the ride.)
Yet again, jakeflyer you have done nothing wrong and don't let anyone make you feel like you have- always be on the lookout for "that 10%".
You are guilty of nothing more than the crime of enthusiasm.. What I mean by this is simple:
When people hear or see something not previously heard or seen and it just happens to be related to something they enjoy (Porsches for you) its really easy to become over joyed and want to share that with others.
What you can't forecast before making an enthusiastic post like the original one in this thread, is how that'll be accepted by the pessimists that may be reading the post that will spend minutes or hours trying to either prove you wrong or just start drama- all done to bring your enthusiasm level back down to theirs. Some do it because they are jealous and some do it because they have nothing else to do and every now and then someone does it just because they are a jack ***.
So, you did nothing wrong- not at all. I appreciate your post here and I appreciate that you understand what we are doing and how we are doing it.
The people that lack the confidence in what they do shouldn't be doing it AND unless what they are doing isn't "special" to them don't expect to get the most for your money.
(Sorry for the rant- I just have little tolerance for those in my line of work that are along for the ride.)
Yet again, jakeflyer you have done nothing wrong and don't let anyone make you feel like you have- always be on the lookout for "that 10%".
11-13-2008, 11:42 PM
#28
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Maybe DWalkers group doesnt really know their way around a porsche... or couldnt fix 996 issues.. so they just refer everyone to the Porsche dealer for new engines... Sounds to me like a jealous ex wife not a reputable competitor. The opposite approach of Pete and Steve... I'd be suspect of those who sell whats wrong with the other shop and not sell what they bring to the table. I personally would never take my car to DWalker if all that is said is how bad everyone else is. Just my .02. You know what you bring... you dont need to justify it to any of us. word of mouth is a powerful thing...
11-14-2008, 11:35 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
I'd expect that the group in question (that went out of their way to create negativity about our program) probably never expected me to become part of this discussion.
What they'll learn about us is that we are everywhere with eyes and ears open to the "buzz" being created. Thats because we take every part of what we do seriously and not only research engines but do our best to understand the people that are going to be calling on our services and wanting our creations.
I'd neverr heard of Mr. Walker, but took issue with him going out of his way to take aim at my program with a post that was based on assumption, lacked substance and was demeaning to me personally and professionally.
I apologize to the innocent by-standers and I promise you that generally you won't see this negative side of me-
What they'll learn about us is that we are everywhere with eyes and ears open to the "buzz" being created. Thats because we take every part of what we do seriously and not only research engines but do our best to understand the people that are going to be calling on our services and wanting our creations.
I'd neverr heard of Mr. Walker, but took issue with him going out of his way to take aim at my program with a post that was based on assumption, lacked substance and was demeaning to me personally and professionally.
I apologize to the innocent by-standers and I promise you that generally you won't see this negative side of me-
Last edited by Jake Raby; 11-14-2008 at 02:20 PM.
11-14-2008, 02:20 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
jakeflyer,
You are guilty of nothing more than the crime of enthusiasm.. What I mean by this is simple:
When people hear or see something not previously heard or seen and it just happens to be related to something they enjoy (Porsches for you) its really easy to become over joyed and want to share that with others.
What you can't forecast before making an enthusiastic post like the original one in this thread, is how that'll be accepted by the pessimists that may be reading the post that will spend minutes or hours trying to either prove you wrong or just start drama- all done to bring your enthusiasm level back down to theirs. Some do it because they are jealous and some do it because they have nothing else to do and every now and then someone does it just because they are a jack ***.
So, you did nothing wrong- not at all. I appreciate your post here and I appreciate that you understand what we are doing and how we are doing it.
The people that lack the confidence in what they do shouldn't be doing it AND unless what they are doing isn't "special" to them don't expect to get the most for your money.
(Sorry for the rant- I just have little tolerance for those in my line of work that are along for the ride.)
Yet again, jakeflyer you have done nothing wrong and don't let anyone make you feel like you have- always be on the lookout for "that 10%".
You are guilty of nothing more than the crime of enthusiasm.. What I mean by this is simple:
When people hear or see something not previously heard or seen and it just happens to be related to something they enjoy (Porsches for you) its really easy to become over joyed and want to share that with others.
What you can't forecast before making an enthusiastic post like the original one in this thread, is how that'll be accepted by the pessimists that may be reading the post that will spend minutes or hours trying to either prove you wrong or just start drama- all done to bring your enthusiasm level back down to theirs. Some do it because they are jealous and some do it because they have nothing else to do and every now and then someone does it just because they are a jack ***.
So, you did nothing wrong- not at all. I appreciate your post here and I appreciate that you understand what we are doing and how we are doing it.
The people that lack the confidence in what they do shouldn't be doing it AND unless what they are doing isn't "special" to them don't expect to get the most for your money.
(Sorry for the rant- I just have little tolerance for those in my line of work that are along for the ride.)
Yet again, jakeflyer you have done nothing wrong and don't let anyone make you feel like you have- always be on the lookout for "that 10%".
...well put. Nothing wrongly done. Not guilty.
Best,
Doyle
