"Money shift" and many questions about what I may of broke
09-22-2008, 05:09 PM
#31
Legacy Flounder
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cumberland, RI
Posts: 3,439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ditto - I had a VERY narrow window of bog vs. helacious wheelspin, maybe 400-500 rpms if you were lucky. With the Vortech V1 S-trim, it was a nice progressive boost line. I never did get the 419 graph as the car puked on the dyno & I lost the run when the PC shut down, but this was before & after the headers on another run when the belt started slipping. You can see where the line was heading before the slippage. Blue line is old, red line is w/ headers & true duals.
Here's an old run of mine vs. a viper in Wisconsin a few years back, before I hit the final numbers; street tires (BF Goodrich KDW), catted Y-Pipe instead of the headers & true duals, 15psi. 95 degrees+ that day. The wheelspin's & chirps are all mine, the viper just hooked.
http://www.sinclairmfg.com/fred/fredvsviper.mpeg
Here's an old run of mine vs. a viper in Wisconsin a few years back, before I hit the final numbers; street tires (BF Goodrich KDW), catted Y-Pipe instead of the headers & true duals, 15psi. 95 degrees+ that day. The wheelspin's & chirps are all mine, the viper just hooked.
http://www.sinclairmfg.com/fred/fredvsviper.mpeg
09-22-2008, 05:11 PM
#32
Legacy Flounder
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cumberland, RI
Posts: 3,439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, and if you're in there doing stuff anyway, look into a Weltmeister Shift Gate setup, or a Seine Systems Gateshifter kit. Seine's is a spring-detent system that tries to keep you in the 3-4 "gate", like when you pull out of 5th it pops over to 3-4... only for the 1-2 gate to 3-4. Welt's setup is tranny-internal & is a physical gate setup IIRC.
09-22-2008, 07:51 PM
#33
Race Car
Thread Starter
Nice numbers. I was thinking that I was going to have lots of issues with the shifter, it feels quite sloppy. Sure enough, it put me on a flatbed......
09-22-2008, 10:39 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
The clutch could've detonated. But, and again not knowing the build specs, the fact that you ran the R's up so high, and that it now won't start, are typical of an over-rev where the valves float and meet the piston.
One quick symptom that you may find, if indeed the issue is as I "wager", is to pop the lower valve covers and look at the valve adjuster screws. It isn't uncommon for the nuts, or some of them to come off the adjuster screw when the valve meets the piston. That shows you how much kinetic energy is int there! Three of mine were off, and one got ingested and passed thru the valve train. It looked like some metal-jawed monster crushed it in his teeth, but no damage was caused by it.
When you do get this sorted out, talk your buddies into participating in some DE's, and then the fast man really has some bragging rights. You've got TWS, MSR (DFW and HOU) and EGR, all great tracks, all fairly close to you, with VERY track-active PCA regions.
I hear you on hurting when this happens; if you get into a 911 engine, this is when the ownership of one of these cars gets expensive. I did a total rebuild on mine (except P's and C's) and didn't spare any expense really. But, if yours has been rebuilt recently, you may not have as much to do. Mine had 130K on the clock. But, you've got head repair (with Racing springs and Ti retainers as a suggestion), machining of rods, inspection of crank, inspection of rockers (rebuild?), bearings, gaskets, etc. You may get out for $4-5K, so it isn't the end of the world.
One quick symptom that you may find, if indeed the issue is as I "wager", is to pop the lower valve covers and look at the valve adjuster screws. It isn't uncommon for the nuts, or some of them to come off the adjuster screw when the valve meets the piston. That shows you how much kinetic energy is int there! Three of mine were off, and one got ingested and passed thru the valve train. It looked like some metal-jawed monster crushed it in his teeth, but no damage was caused by it.
When you do get this sorted out, talk your buddies into participating in some DE's, and then the fast man really has some bragging rights. You've got TWS, MSR (DFW and HOU) and EGR, all great tracks, all fairly close to you, with VERY track-active PCA regions.
I hear you on hurting when this happens; if you get into a 911 engine, this is when the ownership of one of these cars gets expensive. I did a total rebuild on mine (except P's and C's) and didn't spare any expense really. But, if yours has been rebuilt recently, you may not have as much to do. Mine had 130K on the clock. But, you've got head repair (with Racing springs and Ti retainers as a suggestion), machining of rods, inspection of crank, inspection of rockers (rebuild?), bearings, gaskets, etc. You may get out for $4-5K, so it isn't the end of the world.
09-23-2008, 09:20 AM
#35
Race Car
Thread Starter
The clutch could've detonated. But, and again not knowing the build specs, the fact that you ran the R's up so high, and that it now won't start, are typical of an over-rev where the valves float and meet the piston.
One quick symptom that you may find, if indeed the issue is as I "wager", is to pop the lower valve covers and look at the valve adjuster screws. It isn't uncommon for the nuts, or some of them to come off the adjuster screw when the valve meets the piston. That shows you how much kinetic energy is int there! Three of mine were off, and one got ingested and passed thru the valve train. It looked like some metal-jawed monster crushed it in his teeth, but no damage was caused by it.
When you do get this sorted out, talk your buddies into participating in some DE's, and then the fast man really has some bragging rights. You've got TWS, MSR (DFW and HOU) and EGR, all great tracks, all fairly close to you, with VERY track-active PCA regions.
I hear you on hurting when this happens; if you get into a 911 engine, this is when the ownership of one of these cars gets expensive. I did a total rebuild on mine (except P's and C's) and didn't spare any expense really. But, if yours has been rebuilt recently, you may not have as much to do. Mine had 130K on the clock. But, you've got head repair (with Racing springs and Ti retainers as a suggestion), machining of rods, inspection of crank, inspection of rockers (rebuild?), bearings, gaskets, etc. You may get out for $4-5K, so it isn't the end of the world.
One quick symptom that you may find, if indeed the issue is as I "wager", is to pop the lower valve covers and look at the valve adjuster screws. It isn't uncommon for the nuts, or some of them to come off the adjuster screw when the valve meets the piston. That shows you how much kinetic energy is int there! Three of mine were off, and one got ingested and passed thru the valve train. It looked like some metal-jawed monster crushed it in his teeth, but no damage was caused by it.
When you do get this sorted out, talk your buddies into participating in some DE's, and then the fast man really has some bragging rights. You've got TWS, MSR (DFW and HOU) and EGR, all great tracks, all fairly close to you, with VERY track-active PCA regions.
I hear you on hurting when this happens; if you get into a 911 engine, this is when the ownership of one of these cars gets expensive. I did a total rebuild on mine (except P's and C's) and didn't spare any expense really. But, if yours has been rebuilt recently, you may not have as much to do. Mine had 130K on the clock. But, you've got head repair (with Racing springs and Ti retainers as a suggestion), machining of rods, inspection of crank, inspection of rockers (rebuild?), bearings, gaskets, etc. You may get out for $4-5K, so it isn't the end of the world.
I feel like instead of trying to diagnose it and wasting my time, I should just pull it out and apart. There really isn't any way I got out of this one unscathed. I know this now. I learned another valuable lesson and Porsches never seem to stop giving me lessons to learn. Things you never think about in other cars rear their ugly head in a Porsche. Just design differences.
I figured I could get it fixed for less than you say, but if I have any rod, bearing, or any other hard par failure, the total will escalate rapidly.
I have hit the wrong gears many times in V8s without issue. Now I know the weak point of Porsche engines.
I will definetely post pics once the disassembly happens.
09-23-2008, 10:37 AM
#36
Team Owner
I understand your pints Tippy , but to be fair the " weak point" is not the car , it is the driver. I would say 90% of engines these days are interference engines, if not higher. High compresion ratios are needed for getting the maximum efficiency out of an engine. When using a car as designed I think it is unfair to say an interference engine is a weak point. that's is like saying the weak point of a car is the front end because it always breaks when I drive it into a wall.
09-23-2008, 10:46 AM
#37
Race Car
Thread Starter
I understand your pints Tippy , but to be fair the " weak point" is not the car , it is the driver. I would say 90% of engines these days are interference engines, if not higher. High compresion ratios are needed for getting the maximum efficiency out of an engine. When using a car as designed I think it is unfair to say an interference engine is a weak point. that's is like saying the weak point of a car is the front end because it always breaks when I drive it into a wall.
Small cubic engines just naturally are going to have a tight combustion chamber to ensure enough compression. This brings the valves that much closer to the piston.
That is what I mean by design differences, nothing wrong with Porsches design, just the nature of the beast.
09-23-2008, 12:15 PM
#38
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Waiting for the pass behind you, or Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn, Cory! Really sorry to hear it.
Been there, done that exact money shift on a road track. Tach bounced to 9 and 10, ran a few more feet and died. I too have a Proto (TT) build on which I missed a shift.
The good part is that you are coming around to the inevitable. It's toast, and time to just drop it. You'll feel better knowing, even though you might throw up once you know the whole truth. Compression test will give you the fastest confirmation, but you know that.
I had 6 bent exh valves, a couple snapped rockers, and dinged piston crowns. Chains and tensioners were fine. Classic valve float after math.
If you find you need any parts let me know as I have a basement full; a couple good 3.2 heads of Todds with flame rings, P&C's, Pauters, Todd's throw out bearing and PP, etc. Take a good look at your heads (if twin plugged) as several of mine had cracks.
Oh, and I went with a Hargett shifter because this is NEVER happening again!
Good luck, and post some pics!
Been there, done that exact money shift on a road track. Tach bounced to 9 and 10, ran a few more feet and died. I too have a Proto (TT) build on which I missed a shift.
The good part is that you are coming around to the inevitable. It's toast, and time to just drop it. You'll feel better knowing, even though you might throw up once you know the whole truth. Compression test will give you the fastest confirmation, but you know that.
I had 6 bent exh valves, a couple snapped rockers, and dinged piston crowns. Chains and tensioners were fine. Classic valve float after math.
If you find you need any parts let me know as I have a basement full; a couple good 3.2 heads of Todds with flame rings, P&C's, Pauters, Todd's throw out bearing and PP, etc. Take a good look at your heads (if twin plugged) as several of mine had cracks.
Oh, and I went with a Hargett shifter because this is NEVER happening again!
Good luck, and post some pics!
09-23-2008, 12:32 PM
#39
Race Car
Thread Starter
Damn, Cory! Really sorry to hear it.
Been there, done that exact money shift on a road track. Tach bounced to 9 and 10, ran a few more feet and died. I too have a Proto (TT) build on which I missed a shift.
The good part is that you are coming around to the inevitable. It's toast, and time to just drop it. You'll feel better knowing, even though you might throw up once you know the whole truth. Compression test will give you the fastest confirmation, but you know that.
I had 6 bent exh valves, a couple snapped rockers, and dinged piston crowns. Chains and tensioners were fine. Classic valve float after math.
If you find you need any parts let me know as I have a basement full; a couple good 3.2 heads of Todds with flame rings, P&C's, Pauters, Todd's throw out bearing and PP, etc. Take a good look at your heads (if twin plugged) as several of mine had cracks.
Oh, and I went with a Hargett shifter because this is NEVER happening again!
Good luck, and post some pics!
Been there, done that exact money shift on a road track. Tach bounced to 9 and 10, ran a few more feet and died. I too have a Proto (TT) build on which I missed a shift.
The good part is that you are coming around to the inevitable. It's toast, and time to just drop it. You'll feel better knowing, even though you might throw up once you know the whole truth. Compression test will give you the fastest confirmation, but you know that.
I had 6 bent exh valves, a couple snapped rockers, and dinged piston crowns. Chains and tensioners were fine. Classic valve float after math.
If you find you need any parts let me know as I have a basement full; a couple good 3.2 heads of Todds with flame rings, P&C's, Pauters, Todd's throw out bearing and PP, etc. Take a good look at your heads (if twin plugged) as several of mine had cracks.
Oh, and I went with a Hargett shifter because this is NEVER happening again!
Good luck, and post some pics!
I don't have twin plug heads but did the heads crack around the guides?
If they do, I will contact you and thanks so much for your offer of parts!!!!
09-23-2008, 01:35 PM
#40
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Waiting for the pass behind you, or Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, the heads didn't crack at the guides. Just between the 2nd plug hole and the valve openings.
"Next time" mine is open I might opt for pistons with valve reliefs, just in case. It's too easy to duplicate.
Cheers -
"Next time" mine is open I might opt for pistons with valve reliefs, just in case. It's too easy to duplicate.
Cheers -
09-23-2008, 02:40 PM
#41
Race Car
Thread Starter
Reliefs would be nice now knowing how easy this could happen.
11-11-2008, 10:38 AM
#42
Race Car
Thread Starter
Update with some pics, I will post more when I can. This is just a teaser and hold you guys over until I have time to do a thorough write-up.
Sucks to be me.......
Sucks to be me.......
11-11-2008, 10:42 AM
#43
Race Car
Thread Starter
First pic shows the flat top pistons displaying nice, unintended eyebrows. The last pic shows the shattered valve guide.
This motor runs very rich as you can tell by the carbon build-up on the crown of the pistons and combustion chambers.
It probably could be tuned out but at 55# (380cc) injectors, it is probably hard to do.
This motor runs very rich as you can tell by the carbon build-up on the crown of the pistons and combustion chambers.
It probably could be tuned out but at 55# (380cc) injectors, it is probably hard to do.
11-11-2008, 12:03 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Man, that is a hard hit. Mine looked straight, only slightly bent from a kiss with the pistons. I hope your pistons are OK, unless you plan on replacing them anyway. They deserve a thorough check after that kind of contact. I also hope the heads came thru the ordeal OK.
11-11-2008, 01:41 PM
#45
Race Car
Thread Starter
Man, that is a hard hit. Mine looked straight, only slightly bent from a kiss with the pistons. I hope your pistons are OK, unless you plan on replacing them anyway. They deserve a thorough check after that kind of contact. I also hope the heads came thru the ordeal OK.
I think the pistons will be ok, I will just massage the high spots to prevent stress risers and hot spots and carry on my way.
Wow, this motor is complicated! I have about 10-12 in teardown, of course I was reading the manual the whole way.