Pilote

Hey all you rennlisters. I'm a new guy here. Wanted to ask some advice.

I was going to ask this on the DIY forum but it looks pretty desolate there. I asked on the general forum but no bites.

I don't own a Porsche, but my boys (11 and 12) and I have cooked up this idea that we'll get an old Porsche, cheap, and fix it up. I was thinking, 1970-73 911. This would be our first car project together. I'm handy enough with tools but I've not done a ton of work on cars - I do tuneups (plugs, wires, filters, dist cap), but I've never replaced a set of brake pads.

So, advice? Is a 911 a good car to make a family project out of?
Would you advise me to start on a simpler car, first?

If a 911 is a good idea, should I expect to be able to find "restorable" 911's for a reasonable price? Should I expect to find one at all?

Will I be able to find parts (used or new) for that era 911?

Budget is a concern; how much should I expect to spend for the car and then the restoration? Keep in mind this would be (a) for fun, and (b) to drive. Definitely not for concours shows.

Any suggestions on books to get me started?
Better forums to go to, if this is not the one?

Any warnings to stay away from this idea?

Thanks!

r911

Those years and earlier are very costly.

How about picking a '74? It is often cheap and is a bit of a hidden gem. All '74 & later cars can be made to LOOK like a '73 or earlier car.

There are few cars simpler than a 911. But access is difficult. Child labor makes the access easier (small hands) -- don't tell them that tho....

Expect to spend $20,000 by the time you are finished. Unless you own a paint shop maybe... Also, deduct if you own a lift; or own an automotive machine shop.

Pelican bbs will give you lots of opinions & encouragement.

Books - Bentley manual even if there is not one for your year.
PZ's book on which year and what to look for.
Frere's 911 book is the best work on this species.

Peter Zimmermann

I'll second Randy's comments, and expand on them slightly. What you want to do is admirable, but with purchase prices for average '70-73 911s starting at $15-18K, you're initial cash outlay will be substantial. Anything cheaper than that, unless a truly rare good deal falls into your lap, will be rusty. The last thing that you want is a rusty 911! The next hurdle is coming to grips with the fact that all of those cars are now, to some degree, collectible, means that if you make mistakes regarding the restoration it can cost you big money. The days of Earl Scheib/Maaco paint jobs on these cars (including '74s) is long gone, a typical paint job these days, with you and the boys doing the disassembly and re-assembly, will be up in the $5K range. If you have the misfortune of a transmission failure budget, $3K, or an engine failure, budget $9-14K. Enough special tools are required to do engine and trans work that only a very few DIYers will attempt those tasks. Things like shocks, brakes, and service work can be done at home, with a good set of manuals and a helping hand from Rennlist.

Randy was kind enough to mention my book (my signature below), which was designed for someone exactly like you; it will give you the info that you will need to make good decisions before you start this project. There is much to learn about a car that's been built for more than 40 years, and Porsche has stubbed their toe with a few models, the 8th Edition of my book will warn you sufficiently so you don't stub your toe!

Pilote

That sounds great; I'm gonna go invest in the book right away. I guess the boys would like any old car, but for them a Porsche held a kind of magic feel. I suppose I could go to a 914, but that's not where I wanna be. I'll read up and I may check back in with you all.

ked

great idea!
after the appropriate due diligence, a 911 like this one might be a fine father & sons project...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=422845
otherwise, maybe a decent 944 would work out nicely - less investment / lotsa learning.
good luck.

Wachuko

That is a great idea. And deals are out there. I would suggest to stay away from the magnesium engine cars (read Peter's book, Peter's book is a great source of information.)... maybe a 1980 or newer SC would be the ticket.

Please come back and ask anything you want. A great bunch of guys and gals here willing to help with your search and future questions.

And do post photos when you start your project.

Edward

I admire you and the project ...sounds like a wonderful time to bond with the boys!!

Heed the above advice you got: initial outlay is considerable, lots of nuances to learn, and it will end up costing more than you budgeted for. But if it is all done unrushed and with ones you love, then it is, as they say, Priceless! I say go for it ...just know what you're getting into.

I agree with you on 911. There is mystique and history there. As with vintage guitars, there's lots of mojo there! For a project like this, however, I'd personally start with a galvanized body ...that's 1978 on as you'll find out in the books you find. Once you find a sound, straight, rust-free chassis, your options are limited only by your imagination and bank acct.

BTW, welcome to the board! I would love to see your progress as you go ...post pics, would ya

Edward

Edgy01

The only issue that you have to be concerned with is the P word. All the Porsche parts are expensive,--relatively. Perhaps you can learn about restoring a car like a Volkswagen first,--which would be relatively inexpensive, and then in a couple of years, transition to a Porsche. If you're new to Porsche you will have a much rougher time learning on it,--particularly as you state that you are new to auto restoration as well. The advantage to learning on the Volkswagen is that everything you learn will be directly transferable to a Porsche. Most of the tools that you would use would be compatible, and Porsche and Volkswagens use the same fasteners and design philosophy.

Paul K

+1 for an SC as your project car. On a side note, while I agree that the project may well end up costing you north of $20k, I think the experience of doing this project with your boys will be invaluable. There is a lot of help here (and on the Pelican forum) so you're in good hands.

Keep us updated!

Paul.

Peter Zimmermann

The interest in SCs does seem to be increasing, and articles like Jim Schrager's, in the most recent PCA Panorama about the SC being today's Porsche Hobby Car, will only help. That said, there is certainly time to find a decent one at a decent price, although it too will probably end up being a $20K + car. The nice thing about SCs is that there is very little concern regarding rust; if you find one that's been garaged, kept off of salted roads, and hasn't been hit, you're just about assured of having a car with good bones.

TRE Cup

I agree with Edgy01 comment
Though a 911 sounds like a sexy idea, it could really test your skills and patience. Given your lack of mechanical experience (no insult intended), a simpler car would be a better bet

Start with a vw first. Your $$ commitment won't be so great, tons of bug stuff out there, and mistakes won't be so costly. Make your " team" work on the bug first, then graduate to the 911. There are plenty of people all over the us that play with bugs too, so local support should not be hard to find

good luck

911vet

An old bug - definitely. Lots of similarities to Porsches and you end up with a super cool car in the end. But the Mexican VWs seem like nightmares to me. Even some of the German Rabbits/Golfs have crazy electrical wiring and the interiors seem a bit tricky to access.

I love VWs - got an 84 Cabriolet (Rabbit) w/ a 16v Scirocco engine and a ton of suspension mods. It's a blast but harder to work on than my 911. And the parts are about as expensive. Of course, I started out buying at $2000 instead of $17000 !! That will buy a lot of parts

r911

nah - don't get a 914 - they are fun little go karts but cost about as much to have work done on them as a 911 does

- yet they cannot be resold for nearly as much!

sure, _generally_ avoid the Mg motors, but as you'll see from Pete's book - the '74 had a lot less thermal stress on it than others did

another likely candidate is a 1975 PNW or other car from a cold northern climate. The Calif. cars had extra pollution equip. and that hurt the motors over time. The '74 is "always" a safe bet - in the sense that any of them are safe bets.

An SC may wind up costing you too much money. It would be hard to find one for $12k in decent shape. I know b/c a friend was just looking last year. He eventually did find one in good shape for $12k. Maybe it was the last one...

IF you are going to tear into it anyway, a '74 is nice & cheap and shouldn't need too much.

Rust is the killer on these cars. If you are a crack welder and want to teach the kids how, then you may not need to avoid rust. There are two out of sight people on Pelican bbs that have welded a hulk back into a fine car: milt and Daryl. Otherwise stay far far away.

no matter what, a professional with great experience with 911s needs to give you a PPI

plan to read about 30-40 cars

look at a dozen or so

get a PPI on 2-3

buy 1

r911

besides the books, here is some additional reading:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ht=galvanizing

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...54#post2955054

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ghlight=jargon

500

The thing about a restoration project is, if you are a perfectionist (like me), it will end up being ungodly expensive. I am doing a "father and son" restoration on a 944 S which I have spent a ridiculous amount on already, with me doing all the work, including paint, myself. Even though, it is still much less than on a 911. You can rebuild 944 motors and transaxles to very high standards for considerably less $$, plus, the acquisition cost for a solid, rust-free starting car is much lower.

I have also acquired a 911 Carrera, but this car is staying as a fun driver (for now)!

I would concur that you may be better off "learning" restoration on a less expensive car. Save the big 911 project for after.