86Coupe

If you had $1,500 (excluding tires) to spend on parts and labor what would you install to sharpen the handling without hurting the ride?

Cost is less of an issue than not wanting to ruin the ride quality. At the same time don't want to waste money on marginal gain, just want most improvement over what I have now which is stock '86 Coupe, 113K miles, Dunlop tires.

I saw several candidates in the archives but it seems most recommendations were for the full package -- tires, strut bar, shocks, sway bars, corner balance -- without much concern for the ride.

Would eventually like to take the car to a track event, not for serious competition but want it to be safe and solid. On roads I want it to feel more lively than it does today.

If you have any recommendations on brands (Michelin, Bilstein) and specs (22mm, etc.) would appreciate as well.

Sorry for all of the Qs, hope someone can help.

Thanks.
Pete
86 Carrera

Jim Florance

Pete: I'm going through the same process and have pretty much the same goals. So far I've upgraded tires, and installed Bilstien sport struts and cartridges, suspension bushings and Turbo tie rods. Each of these upgrades contributed to performance, but in my case the tires provided the single biggest improvement I went from Michelin Sport 205/60HR15 to Dunlop Sport 8000 225/50ZR15's. Now I'm concentrating on reducing body roll and understeer. Given that objective, my next Mod is going to be TRG 22mm sway bars, Strut brace, and bigger torsion bars. I probably should have done the sway bars earlier but had to change the struts as part of a brake upgrade. Looking forward to reading the input of other more knowledgable readers fo your message. Let us know the direction you take and your results!!

Matt Chamblin

Are you doing the labor, or are you paying someone? Because that will make a big deifference on how far your $1500 will go. Obviously some of it will have to go towards a corner balance and alignment (unless you have the tools required).

JC in NY

Move 7x16 rims from back to front: $0
Buy used set of 8x16 wheels for rear: $750
Swap current tires onto new wheels: $60
New set of Bilstein sports (4) with install: $650
Lower 1", corner balance and sporty alignment: $400

Total cost: $1860

Bill Gregory

As you consider suspension upgrades, you should really do shocks and torsion bars at the same time. They are part of an integrated suspension solution. I like Bilstein sports front and rear, with 22/28 torsion bars. If you wanted to wimp out a bit, you could go with 21/27's (which would still be an improvement over stock), however, when you get to the track, you'll wish you went with 22/28's. With the Bilstein Sports and 22/28's, the ride will be firmer than today. In addition, adjustable sway bars are very nice, as they allow you to tune the suspension towards neutrality. I had 22/29's and Bilstein Sports on my 81SC, and it was very driveable on a daily driver basis, and worked well at the track.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Pete:

You've gotten some good input & feedback here to your inquiry and all of that stuff is valid. Matt raises a good point as labor can chew up the majority of your budget so you must resolve that one up front.

Given your concern about ride quality and factoring that into your desire for improved handling, I'd make the following recommendations:

1) 22mm/27mm or 22mm/28mm Tubular Sander Engineering torsion bars

2) Bilstein HD fronts and Sport rears. IMHO, Sport fronts ride very stiffly and transmit a lot of road irregularities into your hands.

3) Turbo tie rod kit

This would take care of that $ 1500 (parts) and give you a big improvement in handling without a negative impact on ride quality. Remember too, tires & tire pressures play a big role in ride quality issues.

If you run across some extra money, adding a pair of high-quality adjustable swaybars and a strut brace would really help,...

As Bill mentioned, do this stuff all at one time to minimize your labor costs for installation, setup, and alignment. Any and all parts will only work properly when installed, cornerweighted, and aligned correctly.

You will be VERY pleased with the results here,....

Richard Bernau

If you are really on a budget, then the advice my first Porsche mechanic gave me - when I got my first 911 and was looking to spend some time on the track and then pregress to racing - was something like this: Do the shocks, then the anti-roll bars then the springs. Further, the most important bushings in the suspension are the rear spring plate bushings, because the toe and camber settings for the rear come off the spring plate.

While ideally you would do torsion bars and shocks as suggested above, you get a real improvement replacing just old shocks. Changing just the shocks is also much cheaper - in terms of parts and labour. Bigger, adjustable anti-roll bars make a big difference to roll and weight transfer and allow you to adjust the under/oversteer balance. In fact if the budget is tight, just put a bigger rear bar on. Unless you plan on taking your track time pretty seriously, you may not need the most expensive race-grade bars either, a Weltmeister or similar may be just fine.

Then perhaps you might like to get some seat time. If you do the whole lot in one go, you end up with a less forgiving, user friendly car. Almost every person on this board will agree that any standard 911 is quicker than an inexperienced driver. Yet, many of the same people seem to time and again recommend big torsion bars, stiff shocks, and race-grade anti-roll bars plus new bushings, turbo tie-rods etc etc. I don't get it. The only thing I dislike about the handling of an 86 Carrera is the inherent understeer bias. You master driving one of them in standard form and then any later suspension upgrades will be the icing on the cake. You don't need to do it all at once. Get some experience, then make up your own mind what you think is required.

If it was my money, I would replace the shocks with Bilstein sports - providing an immediate improvement in body control and weight transfer and allowing an upgrade path as they are compatible with bigger t-bars. I would also fit a 22mm rear anti-roll bar to dial out a bit of understeer and give some adjustability. A little lowering, corner balancing and a track oriented alignment are essential. The change would be spent on new brake fluid, race pads and some cool air ducting to the front brakes. My current 911 has followed just this path (but is now a little further down the track) and it is very happy on road or track.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Richard Bernau
1989 3.2

86Coupe

Man that was some awesome feedback thanks guys. On the Bilsteins most of you recommended Sports over HDs, one person said HD front and Sport rear. Is the ride comfort much different? I like taking long drives in the car so I don't want it too firm.

MikeF

Thought I'd share my recent experience. I bought my 89 Carrera in July. My mission was to upgrade my tired suspension before I even think about anything else. Here's what has been done:

Koni Sport Adjustable shocks all around.
22mm front and 29 mm rear Sway-Away solid T-bars.
Neatrix spring plate bushings.
Street hardness poly bushings front.
Weltmeister Adjustable Sway Bar.
Turbo tie-rods.
Lower to ~24" all around.
Sport alignment (2 deg neg camber rear)
Corner Balance (resulted in ride height that varies from 23.75 to 24.25).

Overall impressions with about 2 weeks of street use:

Very firm ride but not harsh. Suspension travel is minimal but with 16" wheels (AVS Intermediates-33 and 36 psi for now) the ride is actually better than I expected. Cornering is amazing !!!!! I also added a 350mm Momo wheel which further enhances the improved steering response. I have not tracked the car yet but will be doing a DE November 2 and 3...can't wait. If you are looking for a soft and pliable ride, I cannot recommend this setup. If you want a solid and "real" sports car feel in a setup that can be driven aggressively on the road, I'd say go for it. Unless you're driving on gravel or badly pitted roads, it is a great set-up.

Only you know what is acceptable. I believe that with 17's or 18's it would no longer be comfortable on the street. Search your sole to determine the balance you are trying to achieve. You could save alot of money by updating your shocks, lower, align and balance your car with new bushings and your old torsion bars. Drive for a while and if you're still looking for more, add an adjustable sway bar and tweak it to your liking.

Updating the suspension has been more satisfying in terms of pure driving fun than any engine mod I have ever done to any Porsche. Total cost for my setup was about $2500 but I had all work done by a well known Porsche suspension guru in the area, so about half of that was labor.

Best of luck,

richard glickel.

Rich Bernau,

I didn't think that '86 Carreras had springs.

Torsion bars, yes; springs, no (unless there's been a conversion to coil overs, which, with labor, will run over $4,000).

Anyway, the recommendations of Bill G. and Steve W. are excellent. I've basically got the set up recommended by Steve. If you do go with sport shocks front and rear, you should probably install a "bump steer" kit as well. If you still want a street ride, then the HDs up front and Sports rear will be most confortable for you.

Richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L

Alan Herod

I agree with the path that everyone has suggested, although I change only one thing at a time, just to experience the change. I agree with the logical order that Richard suggested -- shocks, then springs, then sway bars. Shocks may be good enough for you.

I switched to Billstein sports all around and that in itself produced a significant improvement. Next the springs (torsion bars) - I use the recommended 22/28 combination on my 2500 pound SC and I like the ride, of course I don't drive in DC very often, but even PA roads are not unsettling. The ride in our Boxster S feels more aggressive because the 17 inch wheels transmit more information from the road.

In theory sway bars are supposed to be used for fine tuning after shocks and springs.

If you want to do everything at once, follow the Steve's excellent advice.

I changed the rear shocks first and did an autocross, very interesting -- worked much better having the Billsteins Sports all around. The most interesting change was 28mm rear torsion bars with stock fronts -- tested that at both an autocross and Summit Point. Fun.

JC in NY

Most of your responses are nice but did not answer the question within the budget (neither did mine but it was much closer). MikeF, if you got all of that work for $2500 you got an incredible deal. It sounds impossible.

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong> If you do go with sport shocks front and rear, you should probably install a "bump steer" kit as well</strong><hr></blockquote>

Shocks, by themselves, wouldn't be a reason to install bump steer kit (whether steering rack spacers, a tie rod end kit, or another solution). Bump steer happens when you lower your 911 and get the front a-arm and steering geometry out of whack.

MikeF

Hadn't added up the cost carefully...just a quick guess. Reviewing the list quickly looks like about 1700 in parts plus 1400 labor...so, about 3100 total. I try not to watch the receipts too closely to avoid the shock of the P-tax. FYI...bump steer kit is a must if you are lowering as mentioned above. I went with the $15 Weltmeister kit (two spacers and two bolts)...seems to do the trick pretty well, but there are better (more $$$) solutions.

As mentioned above, there's alot of improvement to be bought for far less than I spent...especially if you do most of the work yourself.

Good luck,

Richard Bernau

I think my suggestions fit the budget. Shocks, big rear sway bar, lower, corner balance and align. A big improvement AND within your budget.

I agree with the other posters, doing everything at once has some cost savings and gets you the best ultimate result but you can't do it on a budget. Further, there is merit in taking it one step at a time and learning as you go.

BTW, I do understand the difference between a spring and a torsion bar, but as they perform the same function most people would be fairly happy using the two terms interchangeably - at least to some extent.

HTH.

Cheers,
Richard Bernau