88 911 Air Conditioning
02-27-2008, 11:35 AM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
88 911 Air Conditioning
I realize that the A/C in a '80's 911 isnt great to begin with. However, living in South Florida you take whatever you can get. When I bought my car a few months ago, the A/C was working fine and was doing the job. Recently I found it was cooler outside the car than inside the car. I had the system checked and we found that the compressor and two lines were leaking. It has been reccomended to me that I replace all of the lines, the compressor add a pro-cooler and a fan over the condensor.
I understand why its necessary to replace all of the lines since they are original and 20 years old. Since the compressor is leaking I understand that also. The shop that works on my car only wants to use a new one. This job with all of the parts and labor is enormously expensive. I have two questions...
1-has anyone done this with the pro cooler and extra fan for the condensor? If so, what were the results and is there an improvement?
2-Does anyone have other suggestions? What shops in South Florida are reccomended for this type of a job?
Even though I have been using one shop, they only want to do this one way. I want to know if there are better systems to use and maybe some would be more cost effective. Any imput is appreciated.
I understand why its necessary to replace all of the lines since they are original and 20 years old. Since the compressor is leaking I understand that also. The shop that works on my car only wants to use a new one. This job with all of the parts and labor is enormously expensive. I have two questions...
1-has anyone done this with the pro cooler and extra fan for the condensor? If so, what were the results and is there an improvement?
2-Does anyone have other suggestions? What shops in South Florida are reccomended for this type of a job?
Even though I have been using one shop, they only want to do this one way. I want to know if there are better systems to use and maybe some would be more cost effective. Any imput is appreciated.
02-27-2008, 12:15 PM
#2
Drifting
#1 I would go to the rennaire site. If I were in your shoes, I would buy one of their complete syetems - that include new hoses and a new compressor, new evaporator and a desert duty condensor.
There really is nothing magic about the 911 air conditioning system - a qualified AC shop (not necessarily a PORSCHE SHOP) can install all the components for you if you are not a DIY type.
There really is nothing magic about the 911 air conditioning system - a qualified AC shop (not necessarily a PORSCHE SHOP) can install all the components for you if you are not a DIY type.
02-27-2008, 10:51 PM
#3
Advanced
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did my 84 AC, rehosed ( a local WPB hydrolic shop made them with quality ac hose and my fittings, used old hoses as templete), new compressor off of ebay(signifcantly cheaper), added more fans. Taking the hoses off was a mess but not hard, everything else was a piece of cake. Do the work and take it to ac shop to evacuate and put freon in.
02-28-2008, 10:05 AM
#4
Ken,
There are several upgrades for your air conditioning system, from solving basic integrity issues (replacing the hose lines with less permeable "barrier" hoses, adding a low-high pressure switch to protect the system) to performance improvements (extra vents and condensers, higher performance evaporators).
To get an overview of the problems and solutions read this write up:
http://www.griffiths.com/porsche/ac/ice/index.html
Or drop a PM
Regards,
Griff
There are several upgrades for your air conditioning system, from solving basic integrity issues (replacing the hose lines with less permeable "barrier" hoses, adding a low-high pressure switch to protect the system) to performance improvements (extra vents and condensers, higher performance evaporators).
To get an overview of the problems and solutions read this write up:
http://www.griffiths.com/porsche/ac/ice/index.html
Or drop a PM
Regards,
Griff
03-01-2008, 05:39 PM
#6
Drifting
I think everyone has just given up on it. I bought my car with the belt off, it's staying that way. Besides, if the weather is nice I just drive with the top down.
Trending Topics
03-05-2008, 12:02 AM
#8
I upgraded the AC on my '89 930 and did a write-up with pics you can find here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-turbo-930-forum/267009-a-c-upgrade-project-completed-it-works-long-w-pics.html
It worked great. FYI, I bought my kit from http://retroair.com out of Dallas. They have lots of info on their web site.
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-turbo-930-forum/267009-a-c-upgrade-project-completed-it-works-long-w-pics.html
It worked great. FYI, I bought my kit from http://retroair.com out of Dallas. They have lots of info on their web site.
03-05-2008, 10:05 AM
#10
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
http://www.foxtoolsupply.com/
I used this stuff on my 82SC that had a slow leak(compressor seal?). I topped it off every spring and it worked pretty well on a black metallic with black leather car.
I would fix the leaks and give it a try.
I used this stuff on my 82SC that had a slow leak(compressor seal?). I topped it off every spring and it worked pretty well on a black metallic with black leather car.
I would fix the leaks and give it a try.
03-10-2008, 12:28 AM
#11
Instructor
Ken,
I think 'old man neri' probably hit the nail squarely on the head. I have a '86 3.2 Carrera Coupe and have been through a ‘Do-It-Yourself’ (DIY) R-134a conversion. Let me tell you what you're up against.
First of all it appears that AC was never an initial design requirement for the 911 chassis/body format that we have so you can consider your existing AC system as an 'after-thought' effort that, unfortunately, was severely hindered from the get-go. If you have an after-market system then all bets on the following are off!
Porsche had to place the AC components in any available space and there wasn't much space available. I have to ask, what other small, production sports car has approximately 40 feet of refrigerant hose? Porsche had to split up the condenser space (probably one of the most important aspects of AC) into two areas that are (IMHO) insufficient in size and (in the case of the rear condenser) badly located in their stock form. It's really the best they could do given the job at hand.
But all is not hopeless. I (like you) live in FL, where AC is a must, so get your checkbook out ‘cause here's what you have to do if you’re going to shoot for decent AC in a ’86-’89 Carrera and possibly, the ’84-’85 models.
Keep in mind that the following is NOT an AC trouble shooting guide! This is purely an attempt to show what’s usually involved in a ‘Stem to Stern’ assessment and reconditioning of the AC system in question based on my knowledge of the ’86 Carrera that I have reconditioned. Your personal mileage may vary here…
If you’re doing this yourself (like I did) then your first move is to have your existing refrigerant (probably R-12) removed from the system by a qualified AC service shop so you can take the car home afterward and go from there. If they’re a quality shop (as mine was) then they’ll probably give you a credit for any R-12 they recover. In my case it paid for the re-charge of R-134a I needed after I completed the conversion. Yes, there are still VERY credible shops to do business with – SEEK THEM OUT!
Next you must determine what’s good in the system and what’s bad. In any re-do the receiver/dryer is a given for replacement so add that in first. Fortunately, it’s a fairly cheap component. Next look at the compressor w/clutch and decide if you want to keep R-12 or go to R-134a. In any case you’re probably going to replace it so be prepared for a big cost here.
Then you must consider the hoses, all 40 something feet of them. If you have permeable/non-barrier hose (like the OEM systems were equipped with) it must all be replaced, especially if you convert to R-134a. The hose was intended to 'leak' as a safety feature to prevent sudden rupture if a failure in the system produced higher pressures than normal. Remember, the system was designed at a time when R-12 was about $2.00 for 16 oz and no one knew what it did to the environment, so the leakage was just a slight ‘inconvenience’ because you were supposed to have it ‘topped-off’ yearly anyway according to your service schedule. If you convert to R-134a then you REALLY need to convert to new ‘barrier hose’. Apparently the molecule size of the R-134a refrigerant is significantly smaller than that of the R-12 refrigerant and that would result in excessive leakage if the original R-12 hoses were used with R-134a. Read this as having to replenish the R-134a about every two to three months if you do the conversion and keep the original ‘non-barrier’ hoses in the system.
Now you have to look at the condensers and on a stock car there are two. The ‘big’ one mounted on the engine cover ‘lid’, over the engine (what a GREAT PLACE…) and the small one up front at the bottom ‘nose’ of the car with its own fan. If they’re solid (don’t leak), not internally contaminated with junk and their cooling fins are clear (or can be cleared) then they can be reused at your discretion.
Your next challenge is the evaporator assembly. This is the unit in the ‘smuggler’s box’ located in the right rear portion of the front trunk. It consists of the evaporator itself (no leakage/internal contamination w/clear fin-work on its coils), its plastic housing (intact and properly sealable w/clear drainage for condensation), its ‘blower’ fan/hose (works on all speeds, hose not ruptured and secure), its temperature control (a small probe inserted in the coils that connects to a switch on the AC console) and its associated expansion valve. The evaporator assembly (like the condensers) must be serviceable in all respects. It’s probably best to just replace the expansion valve as, at last check, it is a fairly cheap part.
The ‘Clean-up’ items come next. Make sure that all AC related electrical connections, fuses and relays work properly, especially the fan on the front condenser (which is a common failure point that has a HUGE impact on the stock system)!
If you do all of this and want even better performance then several vendors offer items that claim better results. IMHO, the best that can really be done is to INCREASE the ‘Heat Exchange’ capability of the inadequate condenser portion of the stock system. If memory serves, a few vendors offer higher capacity fans and even additional (read 3rd) condensers and THAT may be where you want to look for additional advice.
Even the subject of ‘interior air circulation’, which is sourced (for AC) from a seemingly adequate blower fan (the one in the evaporator assembly) with regards to CFM Flow capability, can be called into question. The dashboard mounted AC vents (improved from ’86 forward on the ’84-’89 Carrera series) and the ‘bowtie’ under-dash vent have all be subject to redesign by various third-party vendors with various claims to ‘flow’ improvement.
In short (is that possible?) you’re facing a daunting task if you’re trying to get your ’84-’89 911’s AC to compare with the AC I have in my ’95 C1500 Chevy truck (w/R-134a no less!). In a $ vs $ comparison, it’s just not going to happen in an equitable fashion. Expect far less (without a VERY $ intensive re-vamp) if you expect ‘immediate’ cold AC for multiple short trips, as when running several short errands around town on an extremely hot day.
The stock 3.2L 911 Carrera AC that we both have, even when operating properly and in its BEST fashion, was NEVER designed to provide the degree of cooling we both desire/require in an environment like Florida - and that serves as our starting point. We can go from there but it’s costly.
Barry
I think 'old man neri' probably hit the nail squarely on the head. I have a '86 3.2 Carrera Coupe and have been through a ‘Do-It-Yourself’ (DIY) R-134a conversion. Let me tell you what you're up against.
First of all it appears that AC was never an initial design requirement for the 911 chassis/body format that we have so you can consider your existing AC system as an 'after-thought' effort that, unfortunately, was severely hindered from the get-go. If you have an after-market system then all bets on the following are off!
Porsche had to place the AC components in any available space and there wasn't much space available. I have to ask, what other small, production sports car has approximately 40 feet of refrigerant hose? Porsche had to split up the condenser space (probably one of the most important aspects of AC) into two areas that are (IMHO) insufficient in size and (in the case of the rear condenser) badly located in their stock form. It's really the best they could do given the job at hand.
But all is not hopeless. I (like you) live in FL, where AC is a must, so get your checkbook out ‘cause here's what you have to do if you’re going to shoot for decent AC in a ’86-’89 Carrera and possibly, the ’84-’85 models.
Keep in mind that the following is NOT an AC trouble shooting guide! This is purely an attempt to show what’s usually involved in a ‘Stem to Stern’ assessment and reconditioning of the AC system in question based on my knowledge of the ’86 Carrera that I have reconditioned. Your personal mileage may vary here…
If you’re doing this yourself (like I did) then your first move is to have your existing refrigerant (probably R-12) removed from the system by a qualified AC service shop so you can take the car home afterward and go from there. If they’re a quality shop (as mine was) then they’ll probably give you a credit for any R-12 they recover. In my case it paid for the re-charge of R-134a I needed after I completed the conversion. Yes, there are still VERY credible shops to do business with – SEEK THEM OUT!
Next you must determine what’s good in the system and what’s bad. In any re-do the receiver/dryer is a given for replacement so add that in first. Fortunately, it’s a fairly cheap component. Next look at the compressor w/clutch and decide if you want to keep R-12 or go to R-134a. In any case you’re probably going to replace it so be prepared for a big cost here.
Then you must consider the hoses, all 40 something feet of them. If you have permeable/non-barrier hose (like the OEM systems were equipped with) it must all be replaced, especially if you convert to R-134a. The hose was intended to 'leak' as a safety feature to prevent sudden rupture if a failure in the system produced higher pressures than normal. Remember, the system was designed at a time when R-12 was about $2.00 for 16 oz and no one knew what it did to the environment, so the leakage was just a slight ‘inconvenience’ because you were supposed to have it ‘topped-off’ yearly anyway according to your service schedule. If you convert to R-134a then you REALLY need to convert to new ‘barrier hose’. Apparently the molecule size of the R-134a refrigerant is significantly smaller than that of the R-12 refrigerant and that would result in excessive leakage if the original R-12 hoses were used with R-134a. Read this as having to replenish the R-134a about every two to three months if you do the conversion and keep the original ‘non-barrier’ hoses in the system.
Now you have to look at the condensers and on a stock car there are two. The ‘big’ one mounted on the engine cover ‘lid’, over the engine (what a GREAT PLACE…) and the small one up front at the bottom ‘nose’ of the car with its own fan. If they’re solid (don’t leak), not internally contaminated with junk and their cooling fins are clear (or can be cleared) then they can be reused at your discretion.
Your next challenge is the evaporator assembly. This is the unit in the ‘smuggler’s box’ located in the right rear portion of the front trunk. It consists of the evaporator itself (no leakage/internal contamination w/clear fin-work on its coils), its plastic housing (intact and properly sealable w/clear drainage for condensation), its ‘blower’ fan/hose (works on all speeds, hose not ruptured and secure), its temperature control (a small probe inserted in the coils that connects to a switch on the AC console) and its associated expansion valve. The evaporator assembly (like the condensers) must be serviceable in all respects. It’s probably best to just replace the expansion valve as, at last check, it is a fairly cheap part.
The ‘Clean-up’ items come next. Make sure that all AC related electrical connections, fuses and relays work properly, especially the fan on the front condenser (which is a common failure point that has a HUGE impact on the stock system)!
If you do all of this and want even better performance then several vendors offer items that claim better results. IMHO, the best that can really be done is to INCREASE the ‘Heat Exchange’ capability of the inadequate condenser portion of the stock system. If memory serves, a few vendors offer higher capacity fans and even additional (read 3rd) condensers and THAT may be where you want to look for additional advice.
Even the subject of ‘interior air circulation’, which is sourced (for AC) from a seemingly adequate blower fan (the one in the evaporator assembly) with regards to CFM Flow capability, can be called into question. The dashboard mounted AC vents (improved from ’86 forward on the ’84-’89 Carrera series) and the ‘bowtie’ under-dash vent have all be subject to redesign by various third-party vendors with various claims to ‘flow’ improvement.
In short (is that possible?) you’re facing a daunting task if you’re trying to get your ’84-’89 911’s AC to compare with the AC I have in my ’95 C1500 Chevy truck (w/R-134a no less!). In a $ vs $ comparison, it’s just not going to happen in an equitable fashion. Expect far less (without a VERY $ intensive re-vamp) if you expect ‘immediate’ cold AC for multiple short trips, as when running several short errands around town on an extremely hot day.
The stock 3.2L 911 Carrera AC that we both have, even when operating properly and in its BEST fashion, was NEVER designed to provide the degree of cooling we both desire/require in an environment like Florida - and that serves as our starting point. We can go from there but it’s costly.
Barry
03-10-2008, 08:10 AM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
I am not one to do this myself. I am going to bring the car to a Porsche specialist to have this done. Many of you who have emailed me your long winded tails of doing ot your self. Thats fine but I am not looking for an instructional guide. I also am NOT going to take the car to an AC shop that doesnt know 911's. I did that on my DeLorean and it was a mistake.
Here is what I am looking for. HOPEFULLY someone can give me some useful advise. I need to get my AC working. I know its expensive. That why I am here!! If this was a couple hundred dollars I wouldnt worry about it. However, if I am going to spend 2-3,000 I want to make sure that what I buy if effective and will last. Every AC source for Porsche has emailed me and they all say the same thing, "our sytem is the best and everyone else is overly complicated." So I ask once again, from OWNERS ONLY, What have you done, to repair/replace your AC in 87-89 911's? Whos system works the best and who has done it in S Florida? PLease dont reply with a do it yourself responce.
Has anyone had experience with Prototech in Fort Lauderdale or Gulf Performance doing theirs? PM me if you like. I have recieved price quotes and they are all around the same money. All I want to know now, is whos is the best?
Here is what I am looking for. HOPEFULLY someone can give me some useful advise. I need to get my AC working. I know its expensive. That why I am here!! If this was a couple hundred dollars I wouldnt worry about it. However, if I am going to spend 2-3,000 I want to make sure that what I buy if effective and will last. Every AC source for Porsche has emailed me and they all say the same thing, "our sytem is the best and everyone else is overly complicated." So I ask once again, from OWNERS ONLY, What have you done, to repair/replace your AC in 87-89 911's? Whos system works the best and who has done it in S Florida? PLease dont reply with a do it yourself responce.
Has anyone had experience with Prototech in Fort Lauderdale or Gulf Performance doing theirs? PM me if you like. I have recieved price quotes and they are all around the same money. All I want to know now, is whos is the best?
03-10-2008, 10:05 AM
#13
Drifting
That's a little rude - you solicited opinions - you will have to filter them.
Here and Pelican there are alot of DIY types - if you are taking your car to a shop - and considering two different shops - I would go with whatever vendor the shop of your choice is comfortable working with.
The biggest issue pre 1989 911's have is condensor volume. If you really want cold air, and don't want to worry about keeping it stock - and you daily drive - I would find the biggest underbody condensor you can fit and have your shop custom fit with new lines.
Here and Pelican there are alot of DIY types - if you are taking your car to a shop - and considering two different shops - I would go with whatever vendor the shop of your choice is comfortable working with.
The biggest issue pre 1989 911's have is condensor volume. If you really want cold air, and don't want to worry about keeping it stock - and you daily drive - I would find the biggest underbody condensor you can fit and have your shop custom fit with new lines.
03-10-2008, 11:26 AM
#14
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Fla
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have not had any direct dealings with Prototech, but I have tons of receipts from them from the previous owner, as he had the car serviced there quite a bit. The only thing I found on my car that was done incorrectly was the right front brake piston was put in upside down, not sure if they did it or if someone else had their fingers in there.. All the rest of the work done on the car, and its considerable, seems fine. I actually called them once about 2 or 3 months ago for clarification of some work they had done for the previous owner and they remembered the car.
03-10-2008, 08:16 PM
#15
What the shops are suggesting is reasonable, and the cost seems reasonable to me, that is to say it is what I would expect to pay.
The reason they want to use a new compressor is because they do not want to have a problem with a rebuilt, causing them to have to replace it.
Some people just top up the system once a season. This could work for you, but I think you are past that. The new hoses are superior to original BTW. I do understand your concern about costs. For that kind of money, you want it to work. From what you are describing, it should work, no problems, and last you for quite a while.
Good luck.
The reason they want to use a new compressor is because they do not want to have a problem with a rebuilt, causing them to have to replace it.
Some people just top up the system once a season. This could work for you, but I think you are past that. The new hoses are superior to original BTW. I do understand your concern about costs. For that kind of money, you want it to work. From what you are describing, it should work, no problems, and last you for quite a while.
Good luck.