Autocrossers! ...Best performing tire?
05-29-2002, 07:04 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Autocrossers! ...Best performing tire?
We are well into the driving season. What are the Best Performance (ignore: noise, longevity) tires for Autocross events. Continued lap track events not the same.
Looking for experienced opinions only with the following tire limits; 205/55-16 & 225/50-16, must be wear rating (DOT or UTQG) of 100 or greater, no "R" or "C" compounds here.
Very interested in feedback from drivers using the "new" Toyo Proxy and Falken tires. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
Looking for experienced opinions only with the following tire limits; 205/55-16 & 225/50-16, must be wear rating (DOT or UTQG) of 100 or greater, no "R" or "C" compounds here.
Very interested in feedback from drivers using the "new" Toyo Proxy and Falken tires. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
05-30-2002, 03:59 AM
#2
Well, after first reading that wear and noise not being an issue, I figured this guy probably wants Hoosiers or even grippier Good Year Eagle GSCS's. Not GSC, but GSCS which is treadwear 0. But with a minimun of 100, things change. I used to run Yokohama A032 since I'm too much of a bum to have to change wheels for track days and autocrosses. The Yokos for most people I know, seem to last for more or less a year of driving events and street. Yes, street also. I know because I drove my car daily on them and they didn't last any less than P-Zeros. But we didn't like their tendency to harden up over time and lose grip. But still a great tire that lasts almost as long as a regular street tire. Some of us have now gone to Michelin Pilot Sport "Cup" at a treadwear of 80 and last quite a bit longer, making their price worthwhile in the price per mile ratio. Not to mention the added grip and the fact that they grip great until the end of their life. We run them on Fuchs 16x7 and 9.
My experience with street tires with a treadwear of over 100 has been limited lately since tire development happens at a rapid rate. But the little experience I have had with street tires lately has left me stunned. As of this year, it seems that treadwear has started to take on less relevance when it comes to outright grip as a relationship. For example the Bridgestone Pole Position S03 and Michelin Pilot Sport. Just 2 weeks ago, I spend 3 days driving my car on old A032 Yokos, and another car like mine on regular Michelin Pilot Sports and the Michelins were outgripping my Yoko R tires. Of course my tires were old, but the difference wasn't slight in the least. And the treadwear was something like 220 or more. Same thing with the Bridgestones. The main difference with the S03 in comparison with the old S02, which was excellent, is treadwear and durability. I drove S02's in a modified 964 turbo S a year ago in anger on the track and thought the grip was much better than the grip I was used to in the street tires of not too long ago. Both the tires I mentioned are so good that I am just a hair away from switching to either of them and stop using R tires. To tell you the truth, I don't really like R tires. Not that they aren't great, because they are. But you don't get a real advantage with them since everybody else is using them also. If they weren't available to you, they wouldn't be to anybody else either so the winners would still be the winners. But with a lower tire cost. Think about it. Nobody really wins here but the tire manufacturers. You always beat your buddy. He gets R tires and beats you. So you go and get R tires yourself and beat him back. Things are the same but with a higher expenditure. A senseless wallet race.
But in getting back to street tires, I think the grip has improved a bit lately but the real improvement, at least on the extreme upper end tire from those two manufacturers is in the treadwear. You keep the same old grip if not more but with more miles to boot. Maybe it's no coincidence that those two companies are going full speed ahead in a formula 1 tire war. If there is some trickledown, it will go to their top of the line tire. Not their SUV tires.
My experience with street tires with a treadwear of over 100 has been limited lately since tire development happens at a rapid rate. But the little experience I have had with street tires lately has left me stunned. As of this year, it seems that treadwear has started to take on less relevance when it comes to outright grip as a relationship. For example the Bridgestone Pole Position S03 and Michelin Pilot Sport. Just 2 weeks ago, I spend 3 days driving my car on old A032 Yokos, and another car like mine on regular Michelin Pilot Sports and the Michelins were outgripping my Yoko R tires. Of course my tires were old, but the difference wasn't slight in the least. And the treadwear was something like 220 or more. Same thing with the Bridgestones. The main difference with the S03 in comparison with the old S02, which was excellent, is treadwear and durability. I drove S02's in a modified 964 turbo S a year ago in anger on the track and thought the grip was much better than the grip I was used to in the street tires of not too long ago. Both the tires I mentioned are so good that I am just a hair away from switching to either of them and stop using R tires. To tell you the truth, I don't really like R tires. Not that they aren't great, because they are. But you don't get a real advantage with them since everybody else is using them also. If they weren't available to you, they wouldn't be to anybody else either so the winners would still be the winners. But with a lower tire cost. Think about it. Nobody really wins here but the tire manufacturers. You always beat your buddy. He gets R tires and beats you. So you go and get R tires yourself and beat him back. Things are the same but with a higher expenditure. A senseless wallet race.
But in getting back to street tires, I think the grip has improved a bit lately but the real improvement, at least on the extreme upper end tire from those two manufacturers is in the treadwear. You keep the same old grip if not more but with more miles to boot. Maybe it's no coincidence that those two companies are going full speed ahead in a formula 1 tire war. If there is some trickledown, it will go to their top of the line tire. Not their SUV tires.
05-30-2002, 04:17 AM
#3
Racer
Ed,
I am about to replace the Yoko A008Ps on my car with S02s or S03s. What is your opinion on the differences between the two. As I understand it, you feel that the S03s are longer wearing and more durable, however, is that at the expense of the traction that the old SO2s used to give? The S02 seem to have a more agressive tread pattern. If traction were equal, and with prices between the two being the same, it would then seem S03s are superior.
I am about to replace the Yoko A008Ps on my car with S02s or S03s. What is your opinion on the differences between the two. As I understand it, you feel that the S03s are longer wearing and more durable, however, is that at the expense of the traction that the old SO2s used to give? The S02 seem to have a more agressive tread pattern. If traction were equal, and with prices between the two being the same, it would then seem S03s are superior.
05-30-2002, 07:58 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Ed, You bring up some very good points. I also recognize the futility of wallet racing. I chose the PCA class of JS/s for that reason. It is the most "stock" level class for my car. The clincher was the absolute rule on tires (wear>100). They can eat up money fast. Then there is the whole extra set of wheels etc...
I know the UTQG and DOT wear values are based within a specific manufacturers line of tires and makes cross manufacturer comparisons a bit difficult. But I have to say that there is real science involved at the root there. As upposed to the "imitation science" used in the famous Tire Rack feedback ratings, where Joe Public attempts to quantify his "feelings about his tires" with numbers. There are some trends with wear numbers.
For the population of "___"(chose your own extreme adjective here) performance tires, the wear values for all of them fall into 5 levels; 220, 200, 180, 160, 140. Then a manufacturer will produce a tire type for at least a couple of the wear levels at the same time. Now unless they are trying to compete with themselves, or one line of tire is being phased out, there must be some significant performance advantage between the two tires. Now we're back to; lower wear number = better grip. Examples:
B-ston: S-01=140, S-02=140, S-03=220, RE940=220, RE730=300
Michl.: P.SXMXX3=140, P.sprt=220
Pirli.: Pzero=140, P7000=160, P6000=180
Yokoh.: A008P=160, AVSinter=160, AVSsprt=180/220, A520=180
So I would guess the S-02 beats the S-01 by "newness". Then the S-02 is equal to the other 140 level tires by Michl. and Pirli. These would be better than both the Yoko's.
Any body have information contrary to this? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
I know the UTQG and DOT wear values are based within a specific manufacturers line of tires and makes cross manufacturer comparisons a bit difficult. But I have to say that there is real science involved at the root there. As upposed to the "imitation science" used in the famous Tire Rack feedback ratings, where Joe Public attempts to quantify his "feelings about his tires" with numbers. There are some trends with wear numbers.
For the population of "___"(chose your own extreme adjective here) performance tires, the wear values for all of them fall into 5 levels; 220, 200, 180, 160, 140. Then a manufacturer will produce a tire type for at least a couple of the wear levels at the same time. Now unless they are trying to compete with themselves, or one line of tire is being phased out, there must be some significant performance advantage between the two tires. Now we're back to; lower wear number = better grip. Examples:
B-ston: S-01=140, S-02=140, S-03=220, RE940=220, RE730=300
Michl.: P.SXMXX3=140, P.sprt=220
Pirli.: Pzero=140, P7000=160, P6000=180
Yokoh.: A008P=160, AVSinter=160, AVSsprt=180/220, A520=180
So I would guess the S-02 beats the S-01 by "newness". Then the S-02 is equal to the other 140 level tires by Michl. and Pirli. These would be better than both the Yoko's.
Any body have information contrary to this? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
05-31-2002, 01:40 AM
#5
Just to throw more sand into our gear of thought, here is another little issue. Yokohama tends to mold their tires a little on the narrow side for a given size. Michelin on the other hand, molds them on the wide side for a given size. For example, after removing my 245/45/15 Yokohama A032R's and putting them next to the 245/45/16 Michelin Pilot Sport "Cup" tires, the Michelins very noticeably wider. Same thing with the street Pilots.
As far as Bridgestone S02's and S03's, it has been a while since I drove an S02 car. But I found the S03's to be just as grippy. And the treadwear has a big difference. Unless someone would sell me the S02's real cheap, I'd probably take the S03's.
I have been running the Yokohama A032R's for a while because it used to be the only R compound tire out there that could be used for daily driving. I know first hand since I used them daily and they held up pretty good. Actually, I fond them to last longer than P-Zeros. The problem with the A032 is that it's grip characteristics change big time from the first day on the track to the next. They really harden up. By the time they are half worn, you will have a lot less grip. Sure, that happens to a lot of tires, but not all. Definetely not to the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup which lasts longer than the A032. My buddy just finished a year on the Pilot Sport Cup driving track and street, and he is raving. If not for the price, he said he would not think twice. I am trying a set and the grip is superior to the A032 when new.
But I really want to go back to street tires since I am spending a lot more time than usual at the track. Pretty much 3 weekens a month. And at that rate, I am starting to really care about treadwear. And to top it off, two weeks ago, I went to the track and passed all my friends on completely worn A032's with the steel belts showing, while they were driving on R tires that were in good shape. It took me a couple of laps but I adjusted my line and just countered with plenty of opposite lock everywhere, while pretty sideways and kept faster speeds than they did. They were trying to avoid upsetting the car while driving reactively, trying to keep the car from getting sideways and lifting a bit when they did, while I was just working with the oversteer which was present everywhere and squeezing more throttle when it got really wide. Definetely fun, if you know what you are doing. Of course, my tires had barely any rubber touching the asphalt, mostly steel belt. But it made me think that a decent set of street Pilots or S02/S03's might make me even quicker. Of course in an autocross, where you can't really be creative with oversteer or your line, and you don't have enough time to get the temperatures really high, an R tire has a big advantage. But at least for me, on a track, I am starting to think that I can at least keep pace with my buddies on street tires.
As far as Bridgestone S02's and S03's, it has been a while since I drove an S02 car. But I found the S03's to be just as grippy. And the treadwear has a big difference. Unless someone would sell me the S02's real cheap, I'd probably take the S03's.
I have been running the Yokohama A032R's for a while because it used to be the only R compound tire out there that could be used for daily driving. I know first hand since I used them daily and they held up pretty good. Actually, I fond them to last longer than P-Zeros. The problem with the A032 is that it's grip characteristics change big time from the first day on the track to the next. They really harden up. By the time they are half worn, you will have a lot less grip. Sure, that happens to a lot of tires, but not all. Definetely not to the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup which lasts longer than the A032. My buddy just finished a year on the Pilot Sport Cup driving track and street, and he is raving. If not for the price, he said he would not think twice. I am trying a set and the grip is superior to the A032 when new.
But I really want to go back to street tires since I am spending a lot more time than usual at the track. Pretty much 3 weekens a month. And at that rate, I am starting to really care about treadwear. And to top it off, two weeks ago, I went to the track and passed all my friends on completely worn A032's with the steel belts showing, while they were driving on R tires that were in good shape. It took me a couple of laps but I adjusted my line and just countered with plenty of opposite lock everywhere, while pretty sideways and kept faster speeds than they did. They were trying to avoid upsetting the car while driving reactively, trying to keep the car from getting sideways and lifting a bit when they did, while I was just working with the oversteer which was present everywhere and squeezing more throttle when it got really wide. Definetely fun, if you know what you are doing. Of course, my tires had barely any rubber touching the asphalt, mostly steel belt. But it made me think that a decent set of street Pilots or S02/S03's might make me even quicker. Of course in an autocross, where you can't really be creative with oversteer or your line, and you don't have enough time to get the temperatures really high, an R tire has a big advantage. But at least for me, on a track, I am starting to think that I can at least keep pace with my buddies on street tires.