kick7ca

I'm looking to get a consensus on just how pervasive the valve guide wear issue is on 3.2 Carreras. If I recall correctly, P. Zimmerman's book says 1-2% of cars under 125K miles experience the problem, and that the percentage figure goes up quickly when over 125K miles.

Now as I'm getting close to buying and doing more reading here on the board, I'm beginning to feel like I should factor in the cost of a top end rebuild into every 3.2 I look at. Even pristine low mile cars with <70K!

It's very disconcerting because the only indication of the problem is oil consumption which a seller can easily conceal!

Is it really that pervasive? Do I really need to be afraid of 3.2s? Or is this one of those things where only the bad stories get passed along and an undeserved reputation ensues?

Thanks,
Joe

srf506

I don't think its a major concern IF you've had regular valve adjustments every 10k miles or so, changed the oil, and not overreved it on overrun.

jester911

I have a car that now is at about 98k. I bought it at 64k about 7 years ago. It uses virtually no oil and it runs great. I do 4 or 5 DEs a year in it so it gets driven as it should. I also maintain it as it should be as well.

It may go another 98k the way it runs right now. I would not be afraid of a 3.2 . Just make sure you have a PPI done by someone that really knows these cars.
Good luck.

Mike Murphy

During a PPI, you can ask the mechanic to pop open the valve covers and check the guides. I would not buy a 3.2 without that checked out.

WitchDoctor

Isn't there a quick way to check recommended in Pete's book? To drive the car for a block at 4k rpm, then take your foot off the gas and look back for a cloud or oil smoke? Not to replace a PPI, but, if you see the cloud, you might want to save yourself the cost of a PPI and move on.

Am I right about that? It's been a few weeks since I read the book. Memory seems to be fading fast.

kick7ca

The book does mention that, but I don't think it's a conclusive test. Perhaps it would highlight only the really bad cases? I test drove a 3.2 that consumed 1qrt/500 miles and it passed the above mentioned test and produced no noticeable smoke at all.

jester911

The oil consumption usually is the dead giveaway.

911vet

I just bought an 87 Carrera one month ago. I had the same concerns and had a PPI done. They put a sniffer on the tail pipe and said the low hydrocarbon emissions was a good sign. I took a chance.

The car has 115K miles on it. I used 1.3qts in about 1600 miles.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

No matter what year you buy you will face potential problems. I found that out while I was searching. I wanted a 89-91 C4 though they can have oil leaks that are equally expensive. Ultimately, I decided the money I'd save on buying an older/higher mileage Carrera 3.2 could pay for a valve guide job if it had to be done down the road.

Shannon (newbie)

Peter Zimmermann

Jerry is correct, the oil consumption tells all. The decel smoke test is pretty consistent, but the car must be properly warmed up, and then driven for about the length of a city block at 4K in 2nd gear. After that distance has been covered release the throttle all the way and watch for the oil smoke during decel (engine braking). When the consumption is down around 300/quart the test is far more accurate than it would be when the consumption rate is 500/quart or better (remember, factory stated consumption is 1.5 liters per 1000 km). Regarding pulling the covers to check for guide wear also presents some complications. First, with a valve spring installed the spring is holding the head of the valve tight against its seat. If you remove the spring you will be able to move the valve so that it's "open," and check it then. However, the test might not be as accurate as you might think because in 3.2 liter heads the larger wear taper in the guides is at the "hot" (combustion chamber) end. The other problem, although not seen often, is valve stem wear, which most often occurs at the rocker arm end. There is no true way, that gives the answer 100% of the time, to check the guides for wear on each and every engine, other than disassembly based on owner supplied information. In my decel smoke test, the car might not do it until the oil temp is 185 degrees or higher, if the test is done at 180 degrees, which certainly seems warm enough, the car won't smoke. In the other test, if the guide wear is severe you'll find the problem, but the rule of thumb is consumption. If the car is using a quart per 300 miles, or worse, take it apart. It's either going to have worn out guides, or oval cylinders, but the symptom will be severe enough that you will be able to find and fix the problem. About the percentage of cars that suffer the problem before 60K miles, my personal experience had those cars in about a 1% category, while cars in the 60 - 100K mile range were between 2-3%. We had cars that went sailing past 100K miles, sometimes well beyond that number, with no consumption or abnormal wear issues. I wish there were better answers for the subject of this thread, where I could tell you that at "x" miles the car was going to need "y" done to the engine. Unfortunately, too many outside factors that play a big part in this problem (quality oil vs. lousy oil, abusive driving with a cold engine, poor/no valve adjustments, etc.) are everpresent, and a buyer may never learn of them. Is this reason to avoid 3.2 liter cars? Heck no, if you buy a 100K mile car you should expect it to need something, and if you buy a very original, 50K mile, high consumption car, it's just lousy luck. But, I think that if that was to happen, the repair will help the new owner to realize a higher selling price down the road. If the car is a long term keeper, a valve job is enough money to hurt in a single payment, but once the repair is amortized over 40 or 50K miles, it won't be as painful.

kick7ca

Good point.

Vino

I saw two 88 carreras both with 100k+ on the clocks, both had their valve guide issues or top ends done around the 70k mark.

I don't know what oils they used but if they did a lot of mountain driving, could of factored in the car working over time + our gas here sucks.

My other question on the top end issue, could an oil sample be taken and show wear without dismanteling the motor? For example higher lead count or copper?

glenncof

My 1985 is now at 183K original miles w/o new guides or engine work. It consumes 1 qt/550 miles which was determined over the last 4900 miles.

Under 120K oil changed at 7K interval, 3K after that almost all GTX 20W50 until last year. I'm now one year into testing new oils for MPG and oil consumption improvements, it will take another year. I'm also using all low ZDDP oils and will post pictures of the cams.

Just a data point.

DanS911

Save your money, there will be a top end rebuild

samsnead

documentation helps a lot when searching. I almost bought a 180,000 mile car, but it was a one owner fully documented car that had never had any engine work. I ended up buying a 73,000 mile car that I drove home from CA to NJ, burned less than half a quart.

samsnead

I also remeber a mechanic telling me that he saw the valve guide issue more frequently in 87-89 cars, I guess they went to a different material.