theiceman

It is amazing that guys will write into a magazine to ask a question and not know about this great resource called rennlist. I mean it gets mentioned enough in the mag. A guy in the tech area asked how to remove the clock out of the dash and another " brother" from Canada asked about the reduction of Zn and P in oils., both of these seam to come up weekly for us ...

oh and the 968 got beat out AGAIN in a head to head .... I bet the boys on the 968 forum aren't too pleased..

ice

arbeitm

Don't post this in the 944/968 board. They'll jump on you.

Those guys already hate Excellence because they think it's 911 biased.

ked

Porsche is 911 biased... that's why they have survived to the point of buying VAG.
Excellence is, well, excellent (but not perfect, so what?)... there is delay built in to the old school publishing biz, + they are circumspect about making snap judgements. the oil issue is just becoming current because of the reformulation. "real time" analysis has its risks...

Jay H

Keep in mind there are plenty of people that can't even search the internet using Google.com. So, researching a problem on the internet on Rennlist is just not part of their thought process.

Some of us heavy PC users think of the internet as a must have tool to get through life. Many of us live on the internet. However, many more people just plain don't care about finding something on the internet, don't know how to find Rennlist.com, don't care to learn how to search an internet web board, would rather write in to a magazine because that is comfortable, etc., etc.

Let's face it, Porsche just "is" the 356 and the 911. Those two products defined Porsche from the 50's to today. So, it's not surprising that Porsche's top product (the 911) beat out it's lower cost product (968) from the same era.

Daniel Dudley

Once or twice a year Excellence manages to blow me away with a perfect issue. I seem to learn a lot from their tech forum as well, and I practically live here.

I really enjoyed the article on how not to buy a 944. Thought it was written for me.

theiceman

Actually I had a 944 also and lived almost that exact nightmare .. everything was thousands to fix .. and I am a pretty handy guy ...
I kind of feel for the 944/968 guys , they must feel persecuted some times , but I had a 944S for 8 years and thought it was a great car , just kind of expensive to maintain.

I actually like excellence a lot ... and always read the tech articles .. the only thing a grew to HATE was that glazier 356 project that took forever to end .. got tired of seeing pages and pages of that rust bucket.

GothingNC

Iceman,

I did not realize how much more $$ it is to maintain the 944, wow

I know someone local who is looking for his first Porsche, a 951.

I'd rather have an SC for the same money

John

theiceman

John

it certainly varies ...
The timing belt is a weakness on the 944 series and unless you have the $500 tool , good luck withthat , the clutch on a 911 is easy it is about a 16 hour Job in a 944 as the engine has to be pulled out the front or the torque tube out the back, I had an S and had chain tensioner failure in the head , read thousands as it destroyed the head and cams, AC is well, .. AC ...evaporators are prone to failure .. Brakes , CV joints etc are the same as our cars so that is no biggie . I went from a 944S to 911SC andhave been amazed at how little I have had to do .
DOn't get me wrong however I do projects because I like to , I don't like being forced to. I sold my 944S for 15G so for all the money i put in a did not do badly.. a guys kept pestering me so I sold it ... then I bought my SC for guess what .. 15G... a trade most of us would have made I think. I did go from an 87 to a 78 so was nervous, but I have never looked back.

arbeitm

I had a 944 and didn't have the same experience. I do all my own work, but at least from a parts stand point the cost between the 911SC and the 944 is about the same.

I changed the timing belt without the "tool" and it was fine. I used the kriket tool instead. A lot of people do it.

I look at it this way. The 944 has the timing belts that have to be tended to. And the 911 has the valve adjustment. I think it's about a wash.

Marc Gelefsky

John, have you ever spent some time driving a 951? It's truly a great car, I miss mine quite a bit.
I sold a 944 to buy my 911 12 years ago, less then 3 Months later I bought another 944 because I missed the car.
I guess the best bet is to have both!

GothingNC

Marc,

I've driven two 951's with low miles (Under 45,000) and really liked the cars but the place was asking $14,000 for one and $16,000 for the other. (They sold for thet price a few weeks later)
Both of the cars were in mint condtion with all the maintenance to date.

The 951 just did not provide me with the "broken-in-shoe" feeling that the 911 provides.

I also enjoy the open top experience of the Targa when the Pollen is not dumping out of the trees.

John

Peter Zimmermann

ice: I can echo your thoughts right down the line. I've owned 944s, I've raced 944s, and I've spent weekends at the shop doing things to them that a 911 never requires. The maintenance issues are unbelieveable (timing belts, motor mounts, water pumps, oil leaks at the front of the engine, A/C problems, and on and on... and then you lose a rod bearing because the early oil pans weren't properly baffled, and on and on... Don't get me wrong, I loved driving the 944 series cars, but worried about the front ball joint issues when I was on the track. I did a three hour Enduro at Willow Springs, halfway through the 3rd hour, with a two lap lead in class, the clutch disc center blew up and I only had fourth gear and had to retire. Yes, the clutch is very labor intensive, and the belt tool is required. I've written articles for PCA about 944s, and I'm on record as calling the 944 the worlds best sports car with the worlds worst engine! Good grief, without the balance shafts the thing feels like an Oster Blender filled with small pieces of cement. That said, the cars are the easiest to drive at the limit that I've ever experienced - carrying extreme speed through a corner is truly a beautiful thing! And yes, as time passed the 944 series became better and better, it's a shame that by the time Porsche got around to the 968 nobody wanted them.
Pete

Loaded

I felt the same way about the 928.............I thought/think if you want to know about a car drop by here and read the forums andcompare issues posted on a daily basis....................The 911 forum sees more BS then guys crying for help because of TB/WP issues/ A/C Issues/ On and ON ........

I finally GET the 911.

theiceman

Funny Pete
I completely forgot about My ball Joint issue and the " ilegal" rebuilt a arms at the time , no one was doing it to much back than but I had a 911 ball joint put in my A arm. now I remember replacing my leaking PS pump and the destroyed bushing that sat right underneath it .. at least I got a new pump with my belt ... if only the moron ( not me ) had put the balance shafts back right I might not have had the ridiculous vibration that broke my exhaust and then the aluminum fitting that goes to the bloc from the heater core tube....... oh shudder ....

Droops83

Interesting discussion going on here . . . . as someone who works on these cars for a living and who also is about to take the plunge and buy a cheap project 944 (or 911 if a cheap enough one comes along! Yeah right!) I figured I'd weigh in.

Now I am too young to remember when 944s were new, but I feel that many of the problems w/ the 944 are due to neglect over the years. Many of the original owners of 944 were yuppies who just wanted the Porsche name, and didn't take proper care of em, same with many subsequent owners. By the time many 944s got into the hands of enthusiasts, many of the cars were tired and needed lots of work. Compound this with the fact that you have to pay for expensive parts and possibly for an expensive shop to do all the work on a car that's only worth a few grand, and you can see why so many are in sorry shape today. Many of the 944s my shop works on ONLY come in when the car has a major problem and they have no choice to bring it in (IE broken timing belt, leaky water pump, no start, etc), hardly ever for routine maintenance (hence the broken timing belts!!!).

This is not to say there weren't/aren't inherent flaws with the design, but like Pete said Porsche vastly improved the 944 throughout its life. I must say that I have hardly ever worked on early 944s since they are worth so little these days it wouldn't be worth paying our labor rate to fix em, but the 85.5 and up cars I have more experience with are pretty darn good. And from what I've seen and heard from the guys I work with, the bottom end is pretty damn stout on those things, lots that I've seen are still good at 150,000+ miles. Now it is ridiculous that it is 9-10 hrs flat rate to do an NA clutch and 16 for a 951 (why did it take Porsche till the 968 to decide to make a clutch access cover in the bellhousing???) and I guess it's a bit tricky to do the timing belt w/out the flywheel lock (oh yeah and the motor mounts suck, though that's largely due to the nature of a big 4), but if you know what you're doing it's not that bad. The key is to maintain it! They are so fun to drive it is worth it! Not to mention practical.

Now that I said all that I must say the 911 is still and always will be my first love and I hope to get one soon. But you can find cheap 944s so easily that I will probably snag one of those first!

---Chris A.