theiceman

Chris

it would be interesting to hear what the 944 guys as a group think. The guys here are naturally going to be a bit defensive of the 911 and the 944 guys the same. I have had both models and can only speak from personal experience comparing the two.

ekeeton

I'm too old https://rennlist.com/forums/newreply.php
Frown to remember when 944s were new, but I think Chris A. makes an important point. The 944 (and 924) brought a new breed of Porsche owner. Someone closer to the "average" car owner. The average car owner (in the mid-80s to 90s) keeps a car around 4 or 5 years and then trades it in. By that time, very few Porsche enthusiasts were really interested in 944s, leaving them to a possibly ignominious fate.

It amazes me how many 944s are still available that can be made into fairly reliable daily drivers for around $7500. Most people though don't see the logic of putting $4000 in repairs to a car they only paid $3500 for.

arbeitm

That was my issue. I bought my 944 for $ 3,700. I put a good $ 2,000 into it doing maintenance, repairs, and upgrades. After that the next step would have been an engine rebuild.

At that point I couldn't see putting anymore money into the car because I felt like I would be over valuing it. If I had never planned to sell the car (which I originally did) I might have done it...but then I got hit with the 911 bug.

Loaded

I think it has to do with the demographics of those buyers and also the passion. I liken that to 928 owners as well. In as much as some have the passion to own, they dont have the funds to keep the habit. Then there are owners like myself, I have a passion for Porsche, nothing near like some of the guys on this board. Everything I have cept my daughter and fiance are for sale. I indulge my wishes cause righht now I can afford it.........but the minute i see the the dollar meter running up or risk vs reward (like the 928 owned) Im out.

Jay H

I really agree with that. I have a co-worker that REALLY wants a Porsche, but can only afford the initial purchase price of a 944. He could come up with the $4500 for a running 944, but could never spend the additional $4000 it would need to become a very reliable and good looking car. So, having $8500 into a car he could only resell again for $4500 just doesn't make sense to him (or his wife!).

I think abused 911's get into this pricing issue too. Buy a $10,000 911 from the '80's and you'll sink another $10k into it and only be left with a $12,000 911...

Old sports cars are expensive to make right and keep running and looking right...

arbeitm

The 944 definitely appeals to the younger crowd because of the initial cost to buy the car. A lot of college kids end up with these cars.

When I was in college I had a Mitsubishi 3000GT. That thing missed so many oil changes. If it came down to using my money for partying or maintaining my car...guess which one won.

ekeeton

What amuses me about some of the people who think they can't afford putting say, $8500 all in for a car they could only resell for $4500, is that they will then turn around and finance a $25,000 car that they only are "settling for" which they could only resell for maybe $20,000 the minute after they drive it off the lot.

Peter Zimmermann

...and some 911 owners think chain tensioners are a problem! I know that this is a 911 forum, but permit me the following. Young crowd is right, you have to remember that the first year 944 was sticker-priced at just over $18K, and the car was far better looking than the 924. On paper it was a better car in every respect, but as time passed it became apparent that the car was high maintenance. Like Chris said, many improvements were made year over year, but they just didn't seem to come along fast enough. Labor times required to do a clutch were ridiculous, and by the time mechanics figured out that if you did a timing belt on an early car, and didn't replace the water pump, the old pump would quickly fail. When it did it could disrupt the cam belt function enough to bend valves. So, somebody took their '84 car into the shop for its 30K mile service. The belts were replaced, tightened to factory spec, and the car was finished and released to the owner. 120 miles later the original water pump seized, which broke the just installed timing belt. The cam stopped, but the bottom end continued to run for just long enough to have pistons hit valves. So now the head had to come off for a valve job. That's when it was discovered that if the head was warped, the allowable machine tolerance was microscopic, so sometimes the head had to be replaced. All on a car that was still in like-new condition in all other areas, even the motor mounts, which had probably been replaced three times already. And the saga continued, resale prices plummeted, and many of the cars were allowed to deteriorate because they were simply too expensive to keep running. The owners who were winners were at the shop for every recommended (the shop, not Porsche's) service. The early cars got belts, a water pump, and any needed oil seals at that time. The car had to come back after 1K miles for belt re-tension, and it was good to go for another 29K miles. In hindsight, if Porsche had used a timing chain under a cover, and a water pump with a larger shaft/bearing, boy would things have been different. The early 944s shared space in the showroom with the virtually perfect '83 SCs, then the first 3.2 Carreras. Sure, 944s were cheap, and people trusted Porsche even at the entry level, but where are they now? Yes, a 944 can be a real joy to own, but they never were, and never will be, a 911.
Pete

Jay H

Pete,

Thanks again for the insight. With how Porsche extensively tests their products, why wouldn't they have figured out with a test mule or two that these common repairs should have been helped along by a better design?

Were they trying to save costs by having a timing belt verses a chain and a larger shaft and bearing assembly on the water pump?

It's a shame really since the 944's are really fun cars to drive...

Jay
90 964
84 3.2

arbeitm

The 944S and 944S2 use a chain.

theiceman

and guess what cause that chain to break .... you guessed it .. chain tensioner failure...

Brad W

I am out.........
Come on Loaded, Don't be a chicken! I don't think it matters what kind of car you have. When the age hits the parts, then anything can go wrong. Sure my 928 has some querks but so does my 911 And I dont recall a lot of whinning on the 928 board about TB and AC stuff. Maybe that was just your post on that board that you are referring to.......

Peter Zimmermann

...use a chain... unfortunately they didn't put one on the front of the engine too! I must admit that the 16v engines, '87 >, were pretty cool, and because of the timing belt tensioner they were easier to service, but they still had too many problems.
Pete

Peter Zimmermann

Brad: You have one of the cool 928s! I sure wouldn't want a USA '85 32-valve, if the timing belt breaks on one of those you have to take the engine out of the car to get the heads off (Porsche switched to head bolts, from studs, in '86). Your car doesn't have an interference engine, so it doesn't even matter if the T-belt breaks. I would love to have an original, low mileage '84, now that would be a find.
Pete

GothingNC

Water cooled VW's with the 1.8 Turbo's have their own issues similar to the 944's.

Tming belts schedule is around 90,000 miles but the tensioners wear & fail around 60,000 and they have an interfernce head.
Motor Mounts failing.

6 to 8 hours labor to swap the clutch on the 6-speed plus $700 for the parts and the clutchs are know to last only about 30-40,000 miles if you drive in a lot of stop-n-go traffic

Water pumps seezing around 65,000 miles stripping the timing belt, they should have it run off the alternator belt instead

Back on track, I would love to get a 968 as a daily driver

John