Joseph Mills

Couldn't tell much from the video because it's so "jittery", but it appeared you are carrying some good speed.

Nice pass towards the end.


Joseph
88 Carrera
AXhound

69 911E -
75 914-4 -

Joseph Mills

Pete-
Actually, it's just the opposite. It is SO easy to get turned around with these issues. I've done it many a time! Increasing F negative camber will make the front stick better (thereby making the rear stick less better), which in turn will increase oversteer. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I bet that maybe you were thinking about torsion bar or sway bar rates? Increasing F spring rates will reduce oversteer (tighten the opposite end that is loose).

I totally agree with yours and Drew's statements about considering a more aggressive camber setting and F toe-out for better turn in. Most likely, Chris could go back to his original 1 degree negative F camber and still have a very balanced car. And most likely he could decrease the disparity he has in his F to R tire pressure settings and still have a very balanced car (now that he has the R toe-in set correctly). Most likely. Whether or not he would be as comfortable with those settings is something only he can answer and discover for himself.

Like you said, just shows how different setups work for different drivers.

Joseph
88 carrera
AXhound

69 911E -
75 914-4 -

Peter Zimmermann

DUH! My bad, I was thinking in terms of the whole package and forgot, in the post, to tie it all together with the tire pressures. So much of this thread is wrong that it actually confused me - thank goodness that I never made the same blunder on my race car! And yes, early on I believe that I mentioned that the sway bars needed to be replaced, which was probably still in my head. Those thoughts have just been replaced with a headache. Thanks for keeping me honest, Joseph...
Pete

achris

'So much of this thread is wrong that it actually confused me.'

Peter, what do you mean with 'so much is wrong' ? If you mean my settings and choices , I am just learning by doing. This is my hobby. I am no specialist, so that's why I share my thoughts with you, to get some of your expertise. Let me explain how I came up with all the mods. It will be long...

It started 21 years ago, when I was a (greek) student in West Berlin, driving a 924, when Nik, one of my friends bought a new '86 3.2. I was allowed to drive it all the time! I fell in love with that car. I swore I would get one of them sometime later.

It was only 5 years ago when I test drove my current '88 Carrera, but didn't buy it then because of tax reasons. Instead I got an '83 3.0 SC. Only in November 2006 I bought the same Carrera that I test drove back then, and sold the SC.

I spent the last 5 years trying several setups on the SC, and finally I was pleased with the results of a 22/28 bar combination with 22/21 Carrera sways, 7/8x16" Fuchs with 205/55, 225/50 street tires, bilsteins HD front and Sports rear, turbo tie rods and steering rack spacers. Most suspension/brakes parts were refreshed with original parts. The height was set to 25,5"/25", camber to -1"/-1,5" and stock toe. I couldn't be more happy.

I found all the information for both suspension mods and height / alignment settings from rennlist and other forums, USA and german ones, as well as the rennsport systems page.

After having a very balanced SC, I was very surprised to experience oversteering on the '88 Carrera, by doing almost the same mods, just with 29 bars in the rear instead of 28 on the SC. But the G50 car has anyway 50 kg more than the SC, so the 29's should be ok. Then why did I have oversteering ?

Well, it was most probably the ride height. Please correct me if I am wrong. During the installation of rear bars and neatrix bushes, it should be set to 25,5"F/25"R. It was in the shop, statically. But only after driving the car for a couple of days, I measured the height again, and the rear was down by 1".

As a reaction, I reset the ride height and went with more conservative settings for toe and camber at the same time, not knowing where the oversteering comes from. Same for tire pressures. Everything towards eliminating overswteering. My first target was to attend the annual track day and have fun, and there was only days left. That was the reason for starting the thread. And I did, both attend the track day and have fun !

Peter, you suggested I should use adjustable f/r sways. I found out, that for the G50 '87-'89 car there are only 22mm adjustable f/r sway bars available. At the beginning, having in mind to reduce the initial oversteering and considering that I had 22/21 solid sways, I thought that another increase from 21mm (solid) to 22mm (adjustable) in the back would only increase the oversteering problem, don't you agree ? Others suggested to go with a 20mm adjustable sway bar, but I can't find any.

Now that the car is balanced, I need to try out more agressive alignment settings again. And I am about to buy a pyrometer for checking the tires. And later on some better tires like Pirelli Corsa.

Can all of you please make any suggestions about good adjustable sway bars for my car, and where to get them ?

I want to thank you all for your continuous support.

Greetings from Greece
Chris
'88 Carrera

Joseph Mills

Peter-
I hardly think I'm qualified to keep you honest - you the man!

I'm here to learn from you and other knowledgeable gurus about our 911's and seek help when I need it (which will be often). I did want to correct an obvious oversight for the record so others would not be confused by it later.

I'm probably a better lurker than poster. I'm never as clear as I would like to be and if I added to the confusion I apologize.

While I have been active on several 914 forums over the last 4 years, I have just become active on this board since I purchased the 88 last summer and I would like to say I'm most appreciative and impressed with the shared knowledge and camaraderie of all you guys.

Joseph
88 Carrera
AXhound

69 911E -
75 914-4 -

Joseph Mills

Chris-

The Accutech pyrometer (I think it's called the delux model), is really nice. It makes it easy and fast for one person to record and save all 12 readings. The price has come down on them a bit over the last few years, but they're still kinda pricey (around 350.00?). The basic model will do the job too and is about half the price... just a bit harder to write down all the temps quickly.

Joseph
88 Carrera
AXhound

69 911E -
75 914-4 -

Peter Zimmermann

Joseph: No confusion from you, that's for sure! Chris, no offense intended, maybe too much tongue-in-cheek on my part though. It's difficult to know where to draw the line regarding threads like yours, because I know how I like my car set up, but I don't know how you drive, how you settle the car under braking, how you apply the throttle (light, hard, before the apex, after it, etc.) on corner exit, etc. Once the work is done then the work starts - the tuning of the car with a pyrometer, pressures, anti-roll bar adjustment, etc., to get to a point where the driver can drive it. The beauty of adjustable bars is that you can usually find an optimum setting with them, provided the camber settings are right for your style of driving, which goes right back to the pyrometer, which will become your best friend. I also don't know what kind of tracks you drive, my cars have always been set up (as neutral as possible) for the fastest corner (turn 8 at Willow Springs Raceway in CA is done at full throttle in 5th gear) at any given track, and then I communicate with the car in the slower stuff and adjust to it. You, on the other hand, might want to sacrifice a little at the higher speeds for an easier car to drive in mid-speed corners, but I don't know that. Compromise is the name of the game, but you still have to figure out how to sneak up on the settings that you will find to your liking. Keep the shiny side up!
Pete

achris

Ok, I understand what you mean. Well in my country there are only 2-3 race tracks, of which the one I visited last Saturday is the biggest. The fastest corner can be done at full throttle in third, actually I used 3rd gear on all corners and up to 5th on the straight parts. Maybe a chip upgrade with improved throttle response in mid-range would speed me up a little after exiting corners. I could have used 2nd in just one corner, but then between 5500 and 6500 and then change to 3rd again.

Regarding my style in the track : I always prefer to brake hard in a straight line just before turning in, keep the car at the edge of grip (with normal tires) during cornering, almost sliding on all four, and keeping balance with the gas pedal and the steering wheel, but always with very gentle adjustments for both. Then I apply full throttle on corner exit.

Continuous left-right-left turns, like in my video, require good balance, gentle steering movements and quite steady gas pedal, otherwise the weight transfer in the back can turn the 911 quickly around, looking backwards...

So what about a recommendation for adjustable sways ? Which are the good ones ? Where do I get them ?

Chris
'88 Carrera

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Interesting thread,....

Chris:

The very best adjustable swaybars are the Smart Racing ones and these run $ 1200 for the pair with everything you need.

These are available in several sizes depending on the rest of the chassis and driver's preference; 20mm, 23mm, 27mm and 31mm. I would stay away from 27 or 31mm ones unless you are racing and like a "loose" car,...

I can source these for you, if you wish. Please e-mail me directly for details.

RacingBeat

yes this thread has been a joy to read........

achris

This is my car.

Peter Zimmermann

Chris: Hopefully you can take advantage of Steve W's offer! I communicated with him because I wasn't sure that he could supply, or ship to Europe, what you need. Sounds like he can, and does!
Pete

achris

Well, for now, I am thinking about replacing just the rear stock 21mm sway bar with a 20mm adjustable one. Main reason is I wouldn't trust anybody here in Greece for drilling - welding and correct installation of the front bar on my car.

Maybe some specialist over there, who would like to combine summer holidays in Greece and ... a front sway bar installation ?

For this month I already ordered a SW chip, the rear sway bar will follow next. If my wife would ever find out how much I am spending on the 911... But it's my soul medicine.

antar911

Having just one adjustable sway bar either front or rear is adequate enough. I have mine in the front because of more adjustability and it's easier to adjust and get to. Tire size (width) front to rear is also an item for consideration. The wider the rears in relation to the fronts or wide front and rears too have an effect. wider rears reduce the need for stiffer torsion or sway bars . I run 235/45 fronts and 255/40 rears @ 17inch. roll bars are 22 front and 22 rear. solid torsions are 21 front and 27 rear. with thinner tires this equation would change in favor of stiffer bars respectively. JM2C.

antar911