cobalt

I did a search and although I found all sorts of great info nothing on correct size.

I have a friend who has a 67 with cookie cutters in decent shape but wants to have the correct look wheels on his 911. So my questions are what sizes/offsets, p/n's, finishes, etc are correct for a 67 fuchs alloy? Were the centers silver/black or just black and the center caps black or silver? Also what price is reasonable for these and what would be an optimum tire size for this wheel?

Also what are 15" cookie cutters worth? Also if 14's were stock would 15's be better and would you recommend a wider wheel if so how wide will work?

I know its a lot but I appreciate any info you might provide.

Jay Laifman

According to Dr. Johnson's book (buy it), 1967 had 4 1/2" by 15" wheels. In '68 they went to 5 1/2" wide. The 14" wheels were for E's and T's, not S's.

All the wheels were silver for the "petals" and center cap, with no black at all or black in between the petals, but not on them. The full black centers did not show up until the SCs or Carreras. That said, there were some different styles of the black in between. On the earlier ones, the black only was on the flat face of the wheel, while on the later ones, the black went up onto the bottoms of the pedals and a little up onto the rim. I'm not sure about how long the completely silver ones were used. I've only seen early pictures with them. Maybe all prototypes.

cobalt

Jay,

Thanks for the info.

I will pass the info along. What is the name of the book?

Jay Laifman

The 911 & 912 Porsche, a Restorer's Guide to Authenticity

By Dr. Brett Johnson

You can buy it at:
http://www.tpr-inc.com/products/sing...ogNumber=75800

It's great. It has tons of pictures of everything from turnsignals to gauges to wheels to interior lights to fenders etc etc etc, with color codes and radio options etc etc etc.

cobalt

Much appreciated.

ked

regardless of what they did in the day, it is generally thought that going to 5 1/2 or 6x15 Fuchs, w/ the rears being wider, is part of the solution to the handling issues that disturbed drivers of the early 911s. if I were developing a swb 911 as a driver, I would look into this matter closely.

cobalt

The car currently has 7 x 15's and he is thinking of just staying with the same size but in a fuch instead of cookie cutter. I am not sure what advantage but he may be better off with a staggered size like you say. Tires also have a lot to do with the handling of these cars and rubber compounds have come along way to helping maintain adhesion. I wonder if a 6 front 7 rear might not be the best way to go. The 7's seem to be plentiful and cheap so it might be a matter of $$.

ked

Anthony, I think you're on the right track - there is a useful discussion of these issues in Bruce Anderson's "Porsche 911 Performance Handbook", (p208-214 2nd ed.), w/ a great chart that lists wheel & tire combos, std & optional, from '65 on. It seems to me that when the factory decided it was ok to have different size frt & rear wheels on a production car, 911 suspension & handling tuning became more effective.

cobalt

Thanks for pointing that out. I have a copy of Anderson's book and it has been so long since I looked at it I didn't give it a thought. I will take a look. I think we are getting somewhere now. BTW does $150 each for 6's or 7's in good but not perfect condition sound reasonable? I am so used to the pricing of speedlines lately that anything less than $1000 each sounds cheap, but its not my money.

Jay Laifman

$150? I'd suspect they are not factory or damaged. The non-factory ones are much heavier than stock.

cobalt

After I posted that, my friend got back to me and he said the guy misquoted him. He is now not sure if he should ask $200 or $250. Maybe he is reading this? They are factory wheels no center caps and in good but not concours condition, but straight and true. He is offering him $10-$20 per wheel for the cookie cutters which sounds reasonable.

Yes, when it comes to fuchs it is not worth getting knock-offs the forged wheel is one of the lightest and best wheel Porsche ever used.

ked

those cookie cutters may need a wider market to establish value - they are lightweight & well-made. + they are sometimes now seen on disc-brake 356 Outlaws (surely damning w/ faint praise...).

Tom Tweed

You have already received a lot of good advice, but I will add a few things from my experience with my '67S.

1. His ATS cookie cutters are worth $200-300 for all 4, depending on condition.

2. The 4.5 x 15" Fuchs which were original equipment have a unique finish, different than all the other later Fuchs. There is only a small triangle of black paint by the lug hole, and only the spokes and rim edge are brightly polished before anodizing. The rest of the rim surface is "linished", which is a rougher finish, similar to filing, and is not completely smooth. The first pic I have attached is of an original, unrestored one.

3. Since your friend has already been running 7x15" cookies, he would be very disappointed in the difference in handling running these original 4.5" wheels with the OEM 165 tire size, and they are very rare and expensive--$2-3K for a set of 4, depending on condition.

4. The least expensive solution is to buy 4 of the later 6x15" Fuchs (not the early "deep-dish" style, which are crazy expensive) or 7x15" Fuchs, if you can find them (for a little more $$$), in poor cosmetic condition, and have them refinished. The proper 7x15s for this car would be the 911R versions, but their current prices will knock your socks off--I have seen asking prices of $4k/pair lately. Using those in the rear, with the early "deep dish" 6x15s in the front, would be the most desireable setup, but you need a very fat wallet to do it.

5. When refinishing, you can repaint the wheel to match the original style and have something that looks semi-period correct for a lot less money, plus be able to fit modern 205/60-15 tires which will help the car handle much better. The 2nd pic is of my 6x15" Fuchs that I run on the street, refinished on the cheap to look like the early style, with a cheater "polish, scotchbrite, and rattlecan" technique. It works for me, and cost $800 total for all 4.

HTH,
TT

cobalt

Tom,

Thats a lot of info, thanks.

He is at the guys shop now and I think we settled on the 6 and 7's or 7's front and rear like you mentioned. This guy has a bunch of stuff and I think he is asking $200 each with a $20 exchange for the cookies. I am assuming he has factored the value of the cookies into his selling price.

I agree he would be disapointed, and now I am very bumbed because I got rid of a few sets of the 4.5's years back for pennys. That along with the 8 & 9's I sold all seem to be worth a lot now. Oh well who was to know and how long can you hold onto this stuff.

Tom Tweed

Tell me about it! A few years ago I sold a set of perfect 4.5"s for $1500 and thought I was making out like a bandit! They'd be worth $3000 today. But my worst mistake was selling a pair of completely restored '72-73 sport seats with houndstooth inserts and the unobtanium OEM tilting base brackets for $1900, when they are bringing $5-6000 in todays market. Why can't I be like my buddy, who bought a '71 Targa many years ago for $5000, and discovered recently that it had been upgraded at some time in the past with 5 911R wheels (yes, even the spare!)? He sold them for more than the cost of the car.

Oh well. Live and learn. The prices your friend is paying sound fair if the wheels are in good condition. 5 years ago it would have been half as much. All I can say is if you are holding on to any 911R wheels, old sport seats, Cibie or Marchal hood-mounted driving lights, or any NOS, original orange-bar hood emblems, they're probably the best 401K you could have! This stuff has become the new crack cocaine for the early 911 junkies.

TT