Lorenfb

"The Club Sport Carreras are so rare in the US is because they cost the same as a normal Carrera, but had about $2000 worth of equipment deleted to save some weight. Back in '88-89, that didn't seem like a real smart deal, and not many of us took Porsche's bait"

Well said! It's about $25K over priced, which is typical for eBay cars that are "questionable"
and have "unknowns" which get revealed at delivery.

DHinkle

The CS on Ebay is not an "EBay overpriced car". The market makes itself for Club Sports and that car will sell and it will sell for north of $55,000. I am not debating if it's the best place to spend that kind of money but at the end of the day the 88 CS is a collectible and the market votes with it's pocketbook. The Rhodesscholar guys sell great cars, pricey, but great cars.

andrew911

I remember the Ferrari price increases in the 1980's...before the crash. The stock market is high, interest rates and unemployment low, high liquidity in the financial markets, big wall street bonuese, etc.etc... All of this trickles down to collector cars and even run of the mill used ferraris and porsches. I can almost guarantee the important porsche, ferrari and muscle car prices will fall at some point in the (not too distant) future. I love cars, but cars are not an investment 99.9% of the time (there is that 0.1% of the time that they are however )

With regards to the club sport, I think the cool fender sticker is worth at least $1-2K....I remember that article on the CS vs. Z51 vette- the one with the white CS (with blue fender sticker) and black interior- I agree they are worth a premium to a "regular 3.2 coupe", but I don't think any more than 50-75%, and that just for rarity not performance differential.

All of this is just my opinion though...some of you may not agree that the car market - while it may not "crash"- will deflate, and some of you may not like the club sport sticker on the fender

GG Allin

To get something straight here, I'm curious what is the typical weight and horsepower of an 88 Carrera compared to a Club Sport?

LA964RS

Last CS I saw go was out here in LA was in the 40's less than 6 months ago. It was a Euro import though...still a beautiful car. Think its in Colorado now.

LA964RS

My mistake...it went for $37k.

r911

The specific parameters and variables that make quantitative the law of supply and demand certainly change. Ask anyone who invested in groceries by the internet companies in 1998. Ask anyone who bought a house in a hot market early last year. And there are innumerable examples for cars also. So don't expect a car to be a good investment - rare 911 or not. If you are attracted to a rare model, that's great. You can also drive it and will do far less damage than if you try using your Degas as a snowboard.

But there is some risk to racing or street driving a rare 911.

Again, I don't think you can compare a CS to anything except the 'rare' anniversary models. They may be rare but they lack the functional lightness of the really sought after race and near race models that P AG has made.

But hey - if the prices get bid up on CS's like they did on tulip bulbs, that's fine by me....

jackb911

Well, the CS may not be everyone's cup o'tea, but I sure want one! Just not at $75-115K!

I do think Porsche grossly mispriced them, which explains the low number imported. Remember, the 964 RS America was $10K LESS than an equivalent C2, and they sold pretty well (701 units in '93-94).

Remember when we thought $50K was too much for a 1973 RS lightweight? I do.

DHinkle

You cannot compare the Ferrari market to the Porsche market. The only post 70's cars that compare are the 73 RS and S market. The prices of the RS America's and Club Sports have not seen the significant jumps in the past 3-5 years. Dino's have virtually doubled, and the Ferrari name is no where in site. Just my opinion, but Porsche and the collector value equation still makes sense. The muscle car market is more comparative to the Ferrari frenzy of the late 80's.

I know of three Club Sports that have sold in the past nine months. The cheapest was my 88 with 53k miles and it sold in the mid-50's. The California CS was a Euro car and that appears to impact the value in the U.S.

As Mr. Booth can attest, these cars are a blast to drive and again, the market sets the price. I am more comfortable owning a CS and RSA than the money I lost in the market with the Internet bust. I enjoy the cars and breaking-even is nice, for a hobby. I cannot do the same in racing.

andrew911

[QUOTE=DHinkle]You cannot compare the Ferrari market to the Porsche market. The only post 70's cars that compare are the 73 RS and S market. The prices of the RS America's and Club Sports have not seen the significant jumps in the past 3-5 years. Dino's have virtually doubled, and the Ferrari name is no where in site. Just my opinion, but Porsche and the collector value equation still makes sense. The muscle car market is more comparative to the Ferrari frenzy of the late 80's.
QUOTE]

You can't compare the porsche and ferrari on sheer dollars or % gains, but I still see the two as correlated on a relative basis due to the fact that these are cars not traditional investments, and these are not needed items like food, shelter and tooth paste. Where the dino may go from $120 to $75 with a stock market crash, the $70K CS may go to $45K. The number of buyers for these expensive "toys" dwindles when people have to figure out how to pay their mortgages (or in the case of the ferrari buyers, pay to upkeep their yachts, multiple houses, etc)...it's all relative, and comparable in that sense. I still say we're at a bubble/high point in the market for muscle cars, ferraris, collectible porsches, and even run of the mill porsches- just that the run of the mill porsches have a lot less to fall than the 246 dinos and 275 NART.

People have to remember their mindset in 1987, or 2001 to really think about it. It is easier for me to convince my wife that I should buy a $20-30K used 911 now than if we're worred about jobs and paying bills in a job/stock market slowdown...and if there are fewer buyers of that $20-30K used 911, the price range of the same car moves to $15-25K or some other equilibrium point. Same goes for the collector porsches and further up the price scale to the collector Ferraris.

With all that said, I do agree that if you buy right this hobby can be rewarding and not cost as much money as other hobbies if the car you buy holds its value, depreciate only a little or even gains value. My current and prior 2 911s have held their value during my ownership, so I'm not complaining. Now tracking the cars is another story between the maintenance and the inevitible modifications that reading this board tempt you with

DHinkle

Interestingly, the decline in the stock market has fueled both real estate and the collector car market this go around.

I know people whose theory is that they would rather lose 30% on a tangible asset and still have something to enjoy if the value drops. The value may go back up though not to the market high's (most late 80's/early 90's cars have seen market appreciation from the low points- Gullwings; F40's; Daytona 250's; etc.).

The option of owning stocks ran by CEO's and Boards that you cannot have any control over with the stock prices behaving radically to the press given by 25 year old MBA's is not always a good one.

GothingNC

Here is a CS that was for sale on Pelican a while back.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=club+sport

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=club+sport

Model Year: Qty
1987 Model 81 ROW
1988 Model 148 ROW / 21 USA
1989 Model 83 ROW / 7 USA
911 "CLUBSPORT" M637


Equipment Description:
The Carrera Gaupe is offered in a lighter CLUB SPORT version in favor of more sportiness.
The CLUB SPORT version is based on the 1987 model Type 911 Carrera Coupe.
There are restrietions in the type classification and limitations in the warranty due to omission
of the rear seats and PVC undercoating.
The CLUB SPORTversion is officially registered as a two-seat model.
Cars, which are manufactured without the original Porsche undercoating, are not given the
Porsche longterm warranty.
The warranty tor this model is limited to two years.

Body Colors:
All standard and special body calors are available.

Interior Equipment:
All equipment items are available with exception of
leather seats,
partial leather seats and
fuil leather upholstery.

Scope of Body Changes:
Omission of:
1. Automatie heating regulation
2. Additional blower Oncluding switch)
3. Lockable lid lock
4. Passenger's sun visor (only Rest of World)
5. Clotheshooks
6. Lids for door storage boxes
7. Rear seats and center holder
8. Rear and side wall trim panels
9. Rear seat belts
10. Rear key plate with bracket
11. Insulation sheet and insulators (excJuding engine compartment and roof liner insulation)
12. Carrera sign on rear end

Deviations from Standard Version:
1. Heater controll evers
2. Heater control lever sleeve
3. Adapted tunnel carpet (without holes tor automatie heating regulation)
4. Hose instead of additional heater blower
5. Changed jett blower cover opening, left and right without insulation sheet
6. Ornament assembly (without holes tor heater sensor escutcheon and front .fog tamp switch)
7. New combination seats (profile rails between seat consoles and seat for height compensation)
8. Manual window winders
9. Door panels tor manual window winders and with radio speaker masks
10. Rear lined with carpets
11. M 419 (USA standard) rear luggagecompartment
12. Fuel tank (top surface without PVCcoat)
13. Front spoiler without openings tor front fog lamps
13. PVC undercoating (only seam sealing, underside waxed)
14. Carbon canister (cars without catalytic converter engine)
15. Air conditioner (only USA)

Scope of Running Gear Changes
Deviations from Standard Version:
1. Sport shock absorbers (mandatory combination with M474)
2. 7 and 8 J x 15 forged wheel rims (mandatory combination with M401)
3. Without lockable wheel nuts
4. Aluminum spare wheel rim
5. Outside engine mounts same as 911 Convertible (harder rubber mounts)

Scope of Engine Changes
Deviations from Standard Version:
1. !ntake valves (hollow valves)
2. DMEcontrol unit (max. permissible speed: 6840 rpm)
3. Crankcase and cylinder heads marked with "SP"
4. Air cleaner with carbon canister plug (cars without catalytic converter engine)

Scope of Electrical System Changes
Omission cf:
1. Front fog lamps and switch
2. Engine and luggage compartment fights
3. Radio installation provisions (excluding front wiring and windshield antenna)
4. Power window switch
Deviations from Standard Version:
1. Tachometer with different red range
2. Simplified wire harnesses
3. Smaller diameter starter motor leads
4. M451 (includes door-mounted radio speakers and antenna amplifier)

Equipment Features
New combination seats with saat cushion fram basic saat and backrest tram sport saat.
Without electric forward/back or up/down operation.
Modified blower cover.
Special rear luggage compartment M 419 (USA standard), light-weight and without cover.
Door trim panel with door window winder and radio speaker mask.
Manual heater controllevers located on right-hand side next to the parking brake lever.
Heated air can be regulated separately for driver and passenger sides with two swing-type levers.
Modified lid cable handle and changed opening in cover.


CLUB SPORT Version cars have a separate Vehicle Identification Number Range
(as of the 14th digit)

Here is a CS website

http://911clubsport.netfirms.com/


John

andrew911

The details...only Porsche would bother.....ha!

Lorenfb

One bid and a failure to reach the ridiculous reserve hardly is indicative of a market value.
As stated before, it's probably overpriced by $25,000. The only hope is that Seinfeld might feel
generous.

Jay H

True, but again, eBay is used for promoting your car for sale and not necessarily for the actual sale transaction.

If I had this kind of cash to buy this kind of car, I sure as heck wouldn't be messing around with the eBay process to buy this car. I'd be contacting the seller directly and working the usual channels that way for inspection and what not.

eBay is sometimes used as a cheap form of advertising that has wide exposure. I almost bought a regular run of the mill '86 coupe from a dealer that put the car on eBay. I never bothered with the eBay bidding process, I just went right to the dealer.

We, as the general public, may never know the selling price of this CS in question in this thread. It may change hands to a person that may not reveal the selling price on Rennlist or any other internet board for that matter. That selling price could be $40,000 or $75,000. We'll never know...