jdogporsche

Hey everyone. I have not been on the Rennlist forums for quite some time; since I sold my 1970 911T in fact, but I am happy to be back now. Here is what has prompted my return.

I have found a 1977 911 Targa that has had one owner for the last 16 years. It has 97,000 original miles on the engine. The body and interior are very clean and straight. About 6 years ago his wife was driving it and she heard a "pop" in the engine compartment. She was not sure what it was and the car still drove just fine, so she brought it home to the garage. They had two other vehicles so the owner thought he would just check it out later at the shop. Well winter came and he was not planning to drive it during the winter so he drained the fluids for the winter hibernation season. It has not been touched since.

I know the owner and he is an honest fellow. He was thinking of selling it for 10k but thinks that it would cost about 3-4k to get it sweet again so he was thinking around 6k for me to buy it from him.

My question is this. Since this vehicle is "non-running", what is the best way for me to check this car out. I think I can still bring it to a shop and have them do an inspection. The "pop" scenario scares me a bit as he does not know what that was and it was never taken care of. What should I look out for with this model?

The interior is prestine as is the exterior. He is a neat freak and it shows in everything he has, so I know he takes care of his belongings. This reminds me of finding that dream car in old Mr. Mclearys barn like in the movies and I want to watch out that I don't get caught up in the dream!

By the way this is in the Seattle area. Any advice is welcome.

Thanks all and glad to be back on Rennlist.

Jeremy

Edgy01

The 1977 cars use magnesium engine cases so if this engine has never been apart that will be your first issue. The magnesium cases were well known for pull head bolts. You'll ultimately have to spring for Divilar studs to keep the whole thing together.

But first things first,--I would replace all the fluids,--about 14-5 quarts of oil and a new oil filter, add new tank of gas, and then stand back and give it a shot. (Most likely you'll need a new battery as well. Bring one from home if you can so that you don't tie up too much money on this thing if it is just going to be a problem.) If the interior and exteriors are great then you are ahead of the game. Then it is mostly an engine job. With the 2.7 engines their useful service life was about 120,000 miles tops and if it is nearing 100,000 it is probably time for a rebuild. Get an estimate from a shop on that issue.

JackOlsen

If he's an honest guy, then you can work out a price based on a fair value of the car once you both know its condition. Take it to John Walker's Workshop in Seattle, and have John give it a thorough PPI. That way, neither you or the seller will be rolling the dice on the value of the car. If the engine's fine, then 6K might be less than it's worth. If the engine isn't fine, then 6K is too much to pay.

JackOlsen

Here's the flipside to that dream. On the long list of 'barn find' Porsches, a non-running 1974-1977 911, no matter how clean it is, ain't exactly the holy grail. The 'middle child' models are great cars, and relative bargains if they've gotten the proper updates. But they're at the bottom of the 911 pyramid in terms of resale value. The cost of a rebuild on the motor alone can exceed the total value of the restored car.

jdogporsche

Thanks for the advice so far guys. I have been to John Walker's with my 70' 911 as well as a 914 I once had. He does good work. I sent the seller another email asking a couple more questions. When I had spoken to him he had said that it had a 3.0 in it. I know these typically come with a 2.7, so I was a bit confused. He explained to me that the original owner bought it in Germany and brought it home from there. It is the 3.0 and is the engine that came in the car from the factory. The car even has the German plaid seats, which he has covered to keep them in good shape.

I also asked about the "pop" sound that he had referenced. His wife had started it and was going down the driveway when she heard a dull "pop" sound. She then reversed it back into the garage where it has sat in that place for 6 years. I will definately do the PPI.

By the way Jack, I have spoken to you in the past, a few years ago about some of the things you have done with your car (your spoiler to be exact). Your car is truly a beautiful specimen.

Thanks,
Jeremy

Carrera51

It might have backfired and cracked the airbox. I think that is why they SC owners put the pop-off valves in there. Pull the air filter out and look for a crack in the airbox.

jdogporsche

Great thanks for the tip Mark! I will do that!

Jeremy

Edgy01

The 3.0 litre engine is really good news. The pre78 cars had the 2.7 litre engines in them and they just cuoldn't take the heat (produced by the US mandated thermal reactors). It sounds like the car had one very right thing done to it,--the 3.0 aluminum engine case.

As suggested, check out the source of the pop. It certainly COULD be the airbox which was quite common on early CIS engines. But all is not lost. You could easily replace that box with a new one have have yourself a nice car.

Another thing to check on is how long was the car in Germany. One to two winters in Germany's harsh winter environments is enough to do a job on the many engine underside cadmium plated components. The first clue is if the bolts beneath the engine have seized. A significant amount of damage can happen with the massive salt doses there. If in Seattle the expert there can spot that quickly.

I personally would avoid a 77 like the plague, only because I had one and it was the worst experience I ever had with a Porsche. If I had let that be my only impression of Porsche I would have left the marque a long time ago. But it was my second Porsche (which I bought new, myself, in Germany as a USA model).

I'm going to guess, too, that it has no sunroof. (Most Germans never ordered one). It might become a very nice autocross car, with the lower CG.

JackOlsen

I don't think many Americans ordered their Targas with sunroofs, either. It'd just be too much sun.

Jeremy, you should get the VIN from the owner. If it's a Carrera 3.0, it's worth more than a plain-vanilla 911S.

jdogporsche

Thanks Dan and Jack! I will get the VIN and find out how long it was in Germany and report back!

Jeremy

Peter Zimmermann

If the 5th digit of the VIN is a "6" the car is a Euro 3.0 Carrera.
Pete

jdogporsche

Well I looked at the Porsche in person yesterday and was very happy with what I saw. The owner keeps it in fantastic shape. The drivers door handle sticks, as in you squeeze the handle to get in and it stays in, so you have to pull the handle out again to close the door. The front trunk rubber lip has become a bit loose and will have to be replaced. The Targa top is in brand new condition. The tires were pretty much new when he stored the car and he rolls it out of the garage once a month to wash and detail it. He said that he was always careful to park it in a different spot so that there woudl not be dead spots on the tires, but I plan on probably replacing all of them to be safe. The engine was VERY clean (as was the entire car for that matter). So in summary it looked fantastic (almost new), so the next step is for John Walker's Porsche shop to check it out and tell me what might be wrong with the engine. The owner is wanting $6500. I know the owner personally and he is a honest and **** fellow. He takes great care of all his things so I know this has been taken care of during his 16 years of owning it. He is the second owner as previously stated.

I do have one question though. Edgy01 had suggested bringing a battery with me, some fluids (since the owner drained the fluids when he put it in retirement in his garage 6 years ago) and see what I come up with. Is this a good idea to do before taking it to John Walkers or should I just load it on a flatbed and have John do all of that? Also, if there are no fluids in it right now, is it ok to start the engine after just adding fluids...I mean are their any precautions to take when doing that?

JackOlsen

Let me see if I'm getting this right. The seller says that six years ago the motor made a funny sound. Since then, he says he's rolled the car out once a month to wash it -- every month for six years -- but hasn't taken any steps to see what was wrong with the motor?

That sounds a little odd, to me.

Did you get the VIN?

If you like the car, I would not try to start it. Flatbed it to John Walker and let him find out what's wrong with it. Like I said before, 6K is way too much to spend on a non-running 77.

jdogporsche

You are correct Jack, it does sound odd, but you have to know this guy. Two things here. Yes, I want this car and he said that it is mine to take, HOWEVER I don't necessarily have my blinders on which is why I want to get it to John's to check out. I will probably have that done this week. I don't have the VIN on me.

Jeremy

theiceman

I have a feeling you will be going home with that car ...especially if it is a Euro carrera.

Good luck ...