Pre -74, which is a better buy, 911 or 912?
07-24-2006, 05:42 PM
#1
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Pre -74, which is a better buy, 911 or 912?
I know that the 911s tend to me more desireable because of 6 vs. 4, etc. However, on a budget, which is the better buy? My father is looking at a 912 locally...it is red with black interior, 85k original miles on it, 2nd owner, all receipts, claims no rust, TX car, etc. The guy wants about $8k for it...I imagine he might take $6.5-7k. Based on my research, you can pick up 911s for that range also, but they have lots of stories, not very good condition, etc.
So I guess my question is whether or not this 912 sounds like a good buy... or better to hold out for a 911? He doesnt want to spend more than $10k for this car (one among several toy projects) and he definitely wants pre 74 car (i.e. pre accordian bumper).
thanks, Jonathan
So I guess my question is whether or not this 912 sounds like a good buy... or better to hold out for a 911? He doesnt want to spend more than $10k for this car (one among several toy projects) and he definitely wants pre 74 car (i.e. pre accordian bumper).
thanks, Jonathan
07-24-2006, 06:30 PM
#2
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the over-riding issue is PHYSICAL CONDITION of the SPECIFIC CHASSIS in question.
imo that trumps all else, short of finding a lost 911R, ST or RS. these cars not only had the long hood, but no galvanized steel. they rust from the inside, outside & sideways. have any car you are considering personally inspected by an expert in early 901 Porsche bodies (911 & 912 from '65-73). then, of course you look carefully at the mechanicals & interior, etc etc - independent PPI by expert as well.
as to which type he ought to focus on - that's your call; each are fun, have their own features & proponents - a clear vision of why he is buying, how he will use it & for how long is a helpful starting point. the 911 market is a bit stronger than the 912, but lately the 912s have come on. keep researching the subtleties & drive 'em. I like 'em both, so I'm not much help beyond generalizing (light vs heavy, economy vs power, etc), but I'd buy a solid chassis before anything else (after all, they are the same, yr by yr). so, does "... this 912 sound like a good buy?" could be, but maybe not... tbd. good luck!
imo that trumps all else, short of finding a lost 911R, ST or RS. these cars not only had the long hood, but no galvanized steel. they rust from the inside, outside & sideways. have any car you are considering personally inspected by an expert in early 901 Porsche bodies (911 & 912 from '65-73). then, of course you look carefully at the mechanicals & interior, etc etc - independent PPI by expert as well.
as to which type he ought to focus on - that's your call; each are fun, have their own features & proponents - a clear vision of why he is buying, how he will use it & for how long is a helpful starting point. the 911 market is a bit stronger than the 912, but lately the 912s have come on. keep researching the subtleties & drive 'em. I like 'em both, so I'm not much help beyond generalizing (light vs heavy, economy vs power, etc), but I'd buy a solid chassis before anything else (after all, they are the same, yr by yr). so, does "... this 912 sound like a good buy?" could be, but maybe not... tbd. good luck!
07-24-2006, 08:16 PM
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like ked said, its ALL condition. I actually found myself in the exact same quandry you're in. I had a choice between a 68 912 that ran, but was going to need all new paint [it had been done before by an amatuer with bad prep and plenty of overspray] and a 66 911 in an unknown mechanical state, but with a near pristene body for about $700 more. In the end the choice was out of my hands, i tried to buy the 912, but could not get in touch with the owner. after two weeks, i moved on, and purchased the 911. Only after it arrived did i find out that the owner had recipts for 12K worth of professional rust removal and engine work he hadn't mentioned. Definately the right choice for me, but i dont know if that helps.
It seems to me that you would have a hard time finding a rust-free running 911 for 7K without doing lots of research. I would say that it's worth a try though, if only to hear it run. Hope this helps!!
It seems to me that you would have a hard time finding a rust-free running 911 for 7K without doing lots of research. I would say that it's worth a try though, if only to hear it run. Hope this helps!!
07-24-2006, 08:54 PM
#4
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as an update, my father went to see the car today, he took lots of pictures and has promised to send them... i will post.
the owner SAYS and my father said he confirmed that car is pretty much rust-free. this is the second owner, the car has always been in TX. all carpet and mats were out for a thorough inspection of floor board, the car was put on a lift, father inspected it closely, etc. All of this is to not say that we THINK it is rust free. We still intend to get a professional inspection done. However, at the moment it appears to be a 1968 two-owner 912 with original everything... red paint w/black interior, 85k original miles, drove great during test drive, etc...
That being the case, it sounds like the $7k may not be a bad price afterall...
Anyone know of an online source for good information on the 912 vs. the 911?
the owner SAYS and my father said he confirmed that car is pretty much rust-free. this is the second owner, the car has always been in TX. all carpet and mats were out for a thorough inspection of floor board, the car was put on a lift, father inspected it closely, etc. All of this is to not say that we THINK it is rust free. We still intend to get a professional inspection done. However, at the moment it appears to be a 1968 two-owner 912 with original everything... red paint w/black interior, 85k original miles, drove great during test drive, etc...
That being the case, it sounds like the $7k may not be a bad price afterall...
Anyone know of an online source for good information on the 912 vs. the 911?
07-24-2006, 11:39 PM
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Jonathan,
You won't find too many Porsche enthusiasts of the early 912 / 911 camps throwing rocks at one another. This site, Pelicans, PCA & the 912 Registry & the Early 911S Registry are the main crossroads (I think), along w/ all the Porsche-centric magazines (Excellence, Porsche & 911 World, 911, etc). there are a number of books on the details of originality for these cars, too.
So, here's my take (I haven't owned a 912 but have been very familiar w/ them since a friend's Dad had a new one back when I was in HS, I drove one cross-cont. in the early 80s, plus I have helped other friends locate, buy & restore them) - if I were in your position (& I tend to buy rather then sell, so...)... If that '68 912 is indeed as it appears, is well documented, drives out as your Dad described & etc, then I would negotiate a buying price pending a positive PPI on the chassis, driveline & etc. You need to do what is right for your Dad, however.
A '68 912 is the last of the swb, 4 cyl, air-cooled, rear engined Porsches ever made - in '69 they went to the lwb chassis, & that was the last year for the 912. There are some unique features to the '68 because of the US regs on safety & pollution, but those are no big deal. 5sp, SR, Targa chassis, Alloy wheels & AC (dealer installed) are some of the features that some feel make one example more desirable than another. However, I believe (to belabor the point) that physical condition is preeminent.
The 912 is the "poor man's Porsche" of the day, they wanted to have a price point close to the 356SC while utilizing the new 901 body. The 911 was not a cheap car, & had some meaningful teething problems, while the 912 had alot of the 356 in it - esp the motor - & was quite reliable. it outsold the 911 for awhile. it is a great motor - I have one in my '65SC - but it is "only" 95 hp. It is a very balanced-handling car, you can get great mileage (30+mpg) & it is capable of even more perf if you spend the big $s to rebuild it to that level.
Which brings up the issue of $. Allow me to warn you that even if this car is just as nice as it seems, you may ultimately be facing a 2x (or more!) investment - that is just the way it is when it is time to overhaul the drivetrain, restore the interior & paint it - sooner or later.
So, that is why many enthusiasts in your position end up yearning for a 911 - the total % differential of investment is just about a wash, though the 911 will likely be more (initial cost + rebuild on a 6 cyl), but suprisingly, often not that much more. Yet w/ a 911 you have a much greater variety of types; motors from 2.0 to 2.7, T-E-S tuning, swb & lwb, targas & coupes, prices from a few thousand to well over $100K. from its inception just to '73, a tremedous amount of development took place. subsequent years' improvements are often applied to the early models (inc 912, esp for handling), & even now, people are "backdating" later models (mid years, SCs & Carrera 3.2s) to look like the long nose 901. The R-Gruppe movement is quite creative along all these lines.
Therefore, my advice to friends in your situation is as before - what is it you are after? what is it your Dad likes? Power? Tinkering? Demanding driver experience? Simplicity? Jack or the Giant? Whichever way you go, if you focus on what will make you & him happiest, you will do fine in terms of $s spent, since both will be as good (or bad) on that score. I'm biased in that I like survivors w/ provenance - it sounds like you've found a 912 that fits that bill. I would be remiss if I didn't urge you to develop a budget that reserved plenty for surprises down the road - these ARE 35+ yr old cars!
keep us posted.
You won't find too many Porsche enthusiasts of the early 912 / 911 camps throwing rocks at one another. This site, Pelicans, PCA & the 912 Registry & the Early 911S Registry are the main crossroads (I think), along w/ all the Porsche-centric magazines (Excellence, Porsche & 911 World, 911, etc). there are a number of books on the details of originality for these cars, too.
So, here's my take (I haven't owned a 912 but have been very familiar w/ them since a friend's Dad had a new one back when I was in HS, I drove one cross-cont. in the early 80s, plus I have helped other friends locate, buy & restore them) - if I were in your position (& I tend to buy rather then sell, so...)... If that '68 912 is indeed as it appears, is well documented, drives out as your Dad described & etc, then I would negotiate a buying price pending a positive PPI on the chassis, driveline & etc. You need to do what is right for your Dad, however.
A '68 912 is the last of the swb, 4 cyl, air-cooled, rear engined Porsches ever made - in '69 they went to the lwb chassis, & that was the last year for the 912. There are some unique features to the '68 because of the US regs on safety & pollution, but those are no big deal. 5sp, SR, Targa chassis, Alloy wheels & AC (dealer installed) are some of the features that some feel make one example more desirable than another. However, I believe (to belabor the point) that physical condition is preeminent.
The 912 is the "poor man's Porsche" of the day, they wanted to have a price point close to the 356SC while utilizing the new 901 body. The 911 was not a cheap car, & had some meaningful teething problems, while the 912 had alot of the 356 in it - esp the motor - & was quite reliable. it outsold the 911 for awhile. it is a great motor - I have one in my '65SC - but it is "only" 95 hp. It is a very balanced-handling car, you can get great mileage (30+mpg) & it is capable of even more perf if you spend the big $s to rebuild it to that level.
Which brings up the issue of $. Allow me to warn you that even if this car is just as nice as it seems, you may ultimately be facing a 2x (or more!) investment - that is just the way it is when it is time to overhaul the drivetrain, restore the interior & paint it - sooner or later.
So, that is why many enthusiasts in your position end up yearning for a 911 - the total % differential of investment is just about a wash, though the 911 will likely be more (initial cost + rebuild on a 6 cyl), but suprisingly, often not that much more. Yet w/ a 911 you have a much greater variety of types; motors from 2.0 to 2.7, T-E-S tuning, swb & lwb, targas & coupes, prices from a few thousand to well over $100K. from its inception just to '73, a tremedous amount of development took place. subsequent years' improvements are often applied to the early models (inc 912, esp for handling), & even now, people are "backdating" later models (mid years, SCs & Carrera 3.2s) to look like the long nose 901. The R-Gruppe movement is quite creative along all these lines.
Therefore, my advice to friends in your situation is as before - what is it you are after? what is it your Dad likes? Power? Tinkering? Demanding driver experience? Simplicity? Jack or the Giant? Whichever way you go, if you focus on what will make you & him happiest, you will do fine in terms of $s spent, since both will be as good (or bad) on that score. I'm biased in that I like survivors w/ provenance - it sounds like you've found a 912 that fits that bill. I would be remiss if I didn't urge you to develop a budget that reserved plenty for surprises down the road - these ARE 35+ yr old cars!
keep us posted.
07-24-2006, 11:48 PM
#6
I'm not sure Porsche and Budget should ever be put together.
The 912 and 911 are more alike than different. Given the age of both cars, as mentioned before, CONDITION is key. Yes the 912 is less poweful Its also lighter. Since they share bodies, any body work would cost the same ($$$$). Motors are different, but due to age, and some scarcity, I don't imagine the 912 being significantly cheaper to do a full rebuild on.
Both are enjoyable. Both should make great projects. Be sure to share pics of the 912 in question!
The 912 and 911 are more alike than different. Given the age of both cars, as mentioned before, CONDITION is key. Yes the 912 is less poweful Its also lighter. Since they share bodies, any body work would cost the same ($$$$). Motors are different, but due to age, and some scarcity, I don't imagine the 912 being significantly cheaper to do a full rebuild on.
Both are enjoyable. Both should make great projects. Be sure to share pics of the 912 in question!
07-25-2006, 02:00 AM
#7
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
thanks for all the feedback...very helpful.
just to be clear, this is intended to be a weekend tinkering toy that my Dad might decide to restore fully over time, OR - just drive for several months, enjoy it, then sell. He has rebuilt cars and engines his whole life, but never spent time with a Porsche before. I think that he sees this 912 as an opportunity to get into an older Porsche in great shape pretty cheap and decide where to go from there. Even if the car ends up being 2x to maintain, etc... he is still under $15k.
I disagree with the comments that you cannot enjoy a Porsche on a budget. Although he has restored some high $$ cars previously -- i personally think that a pinnacle was the 1967 Roadrunner restored to absolute showroom original condition, including all the cartoon decals -- he generally likes to pick up cars less than $10k and play around with them for awhile then sell. I will post some pics tomorrow. Thanks again
just to be clear, this is intended to be a weekend tinkering toy that my Dad might decide to restore fully over time, OR - just drive for several months, enjoy it, then sell. He has rebuilt cars and engines his whole life, but never spent time with a Porsche before. I think that he sees this 912 as an opportunity to get into an older Porsche in great shape pretty cheap and decide where to go from there. Even if the car ends up being 2x to maintain, etc... he is still under $15k.
I disagree with the comments that you cannot enjoy a Porsche on a budget. Although he has restored some high $$ cars previously -- i personally think that a pinnacle was the 1967 Roadrunner restored to absolute showroom original condition, including all the cartoon decals -- he generally likes to pick up cars less than $10k and play around with them for awhile then sell. I will post some pics tomorrow. Thanks again
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Its just so much fun!
07-25-2006, 05:58 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Update, I was wrong - this is a 1966 912, not 1968.
Here are the pictures. The owner will probably take $6.5k for the car. One of the problems is that the owner lives on a farm and doesnt want to "mess" with us taking the car away, having PPI, etc. I am trying to find someone local that can go help inspect it for a fee...however, in case I dont succeed, does anyone have a "buyers guide" list of things to look for in a 912? Or maybe a recommended book? Thanks, Jonathan
Here are the pictures. The owner will probably take $6.5k for the car. One of the problems is that the owner lives on a farm and doesnt want to "mess" with us taking the car away, having PPI, etc. I am trying to find someone local that can go help inspect it for a fee...however, in case I dont succeed, does anyone have a "buyers guide" list of things to look for in a 912? Or maybe a recommended book? Thanks, Jonathan
07-25-2006, 06:48 PM
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check out Pete's PPI checklist on this very site.
can you get him to go w/ you to a nearby PPI site, as part of a test drive & close?
is it a 5sp?
looks ("on TV") about like a $6.5K driver 912. sounds like your Dad is a great tinkerer. this might be a great way to get into old Porsches. when you start at the beginning, you end up learning a good deal about every subsequent model (well, up to '89 anyway).
http://www.912registry.org/
can you get him to go w/ you to a nearby PPI site, as part of a test drive & close?
is it a 5sp?
looks ("on TV") about like a $6.5K driver 912. sounds like your Dad is a great tinkerer. this might be a great way to get into old Porsches. when you start at the beginning, you end up learning a good deal about every subsequent model (well, up to '89 anyway).
http://www.912registry.org/
07-29-2006, 05:36 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
We bought this car today for $6k. It drove very strong and I really LOVED all of the paperwork and originality. Here are the details:
1966 912
Original black paint/red interior
Chrome wheels
80k original miles
One-owner car
Texas car, only mild surface rust in a few spots, but primarily rust free
All paperwork (I mean all), including original bill of sale, invoice, tech manual, owners manual, etc
All original equipment, including tools, spare (with original spare tire), etc.
I know that it is not a 911, but the 912 board doesnt seem to activer here, so thought I would close out this post by letting you know the disposition of the deal.
1966 912
Original black paint/red interior
Chrome wheels
80k original miles
One-owner car
Texas car, only mild surface rust in a few spots, but primarily rust free
All paperwork (I mean all), including original bill of sale, invoice, tech manual, owners manual, etc
All original equipment, including tools, spare (with original spare tire), etc.
I know that it is not a 911, but the 912 board doesnt seem to activer here, so thought I would close out this post by letting you know the disposition of the deal.
07-30-2006, 07:34 PM
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If you loved the 912, I'd say go with it. Personally, I've always felt like I was driving in a 911 that was missing the beautiful 911 whine and power. Don't get me wrong. I loved my 356 at "only" 60 hp and drove it everywhere. To me, it just seemed off to have that engine in the 911 body. But, that's only me. Others obviously love them. In fact, I still have a "soft" spot for a swb 912 targa soft window. One of these days . . .
