Time to upgrade lighting... H4s or replace fogs w/ Driving lights?
02-07-2003, 01:21 PM
#16
The european lens/housing set-up does require a great deal of work to convert from a DOT lens housing. The pay off may be in cool, but the resulting improvement in lighting will be nill compared to a sealed beam (H4) swap, with current US DOT housing.
Unless you are decorating the road for some seasonal celebration, color of light is not a criteria to use when selecting light components.
Luminous intensity (light density) is measured in units called "candela". Street people, and most armchair enthusiasts call this "candle power".
In general the family of H4 bulbs (for your sealed beam light lens) are the same with regard to performance, for a given level of power (55 watts, 90/100 watts, etc...), regardless of manufacturer. You can draw a parallel here with the light bulbs in your living spaces. Variation between bulbs does occur in longevity. Again like your home bulbs. These are just glass bulbs with a resistance filament inside.
The big player in this system is the lens. Poor grades of glass, or forming methods, or the design of pointing pattern or bulb locator (focus point) will choke and distort the available light from the bulb before it gets to the desired location on the road ahead. Especially over time as road grit gets blasted into the lights. Softer glass will start to look like the surface of the moon.
The best lens manufacturers are Cibie (pronounced "see-bee-aey") and Marchal (French based companies). The retail cost of the H4 sealed beam lens is higher for these two makes over the rest (Hella,...etc.). You will also notice a difference in performance.
The sad part about performance lighting (do not confuse with clear tail lights, neon, etc... from the F&F scene) upgrades is that they recieve little attention, compared to chips, exhausts, cams, and such. This level of vehicle improvement is at the end of the owners bolt-on plan. While not complex, it is often executed poorly, with too much emphasis on "MORE POWER IS BEST".
I worked for the East coast importer/distributor of Cibie & Marchal lighting components. We went to Sebring to support the 12 hr race. I did the work on the 935's for Akin, Foyt, Henn, etc.... My experience taught me just how little I knew (as well as most enthusiasts too) about lighting.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Unless you are decorating the road for some seasonal celebration, color of light is not a criteria to use when selecting light components.
Luminous intensity (light density) is measured in units called "candela". Street people, and most armchair enthusiasts call this "candle power".
In general the family of H4 bulbs (for your sealed beam light lens) are the same with regard to performance, for a given level of power (55 watts, 90/100 watts, etc...), regardless of manufacturer. You can draw a parallel here with the light bulbs in your living spaces. Variation between bulbs does occur in longevity. Again like your home bulbs. These are just glass bulbs with a resistance filament inside.
The big player in this system is the lens. Poor grades of glass, or forming methods, or the design of pointing pattern or bulb locator (focus point) will choke and distort the available light from the bulb before it gets to the desired location on the road ahead. Especially over time as road grit gets blasted into the lights. Softer glass will start to look like the surface of the moon.
The best lens manufacturers are Cibie (pronounced "see-bee-aey") and Marchal (French based companies). The retail cost of the H4 sealed beam lens is higher for these two makes over the rest (Hella,...etc.). You will also notice a difference in performance.
The sad part about performance lighting (do not confuse with clear tail lights, neon, etc... from the F&F scene) upgrades is that they recieve little attention, compared to chips, exhausts, cams, and such. This level of vehicle improvement is at the end of the owners bolt-on plan. While not complex, it is often executed poorly, with too much emphasis on "MORE POWER IS BEST".
I worked for the East coast importer/distributor of Cibie & Marchal lighting components. We went to Sebring to support the 12 hr race. I did the work on the 935's for Akin, Foyt, Henn, etc.... My experience taught me just how little I knew (as well as most enthusiasts too) about lighting.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
02-07-2003, 05:15 PM
#17
Instructor
Thread Starter
Head light lighting means a lot to me...when driving at night I can relax a lot more when I can see whats a mile down the road as compared to what normal DOT lights give you.
So what exactly are the advantages of having the Euro housings other than being able to say "I have Euro housings"?
I'm a little fuzzy on what exactly the differences are....I thought "sealed beam" meant that the bulb, reflector and glass are all one piece, and when it goes bad, you throw the whole thing out [my e30 is like that] but it sounds like the bulb is seperate?
[edit]oh, and I think somone should put this in a FAQ somewhere, all of this info has been really useful
[/edit]
So what exactly are the advantages of having the Euro housings other than being able to say "I have Euro housings"?
I'm a little fuzzy on what exactly the differences are....I thought "sealed beam" meant that the bulb, reflector and glass are all one piece, and when it goes bad, you throw the whole thing out [my e30 is like that] but it sounds like the bulb is seperate?
[edit]oh, and I think somone should put this in a FAQ somewhere, all of this info has been really useful
[/edit]
02-07-2003, 07:07 PM
#18
Try a Google web search for Cibie for more info.
The term "sealed beam" is used too often to clearly define the type of lens/bulb. Like "fuel injection" is used. If the bulb alone can not be replaced when the filament burns out, then the the whole lens/reflector/bulb must be. How good do you think the lens is in one of these throw away lamps, for a 2 cent filament?
The term H4 also suffers. Porsche people use the term most often to refer to the european lamp assembly (lens/bulb/trim rings). H4 is just one of several replacable bulbs (H1, H2,...) that fit the european standard headlamp designs (commonly called E-code.
There are two H4 systems for 911's. One uses the angled flat face lens with thin trim rings to fill between the lamp and the car body. The other uses the traditional (DOT) 7" diameter hemi-spherical (dome) lens, with the larger more rounded shaped trim rings. The former is the european spec package, the later is the US. DOT version. Porsche could not import cars for sale to the US with lights that were not DOT spec certified. Sometime late in the 1980's this was changed. Prior to that change a car is not US DOT legal if it has headlights installed that are not the type certified for it's year of manufacture. So even if the 1989 911's came with the flat faced european style (trim ring), and you install these on your 1982, it is not legal. There is no "grandfather clause" to back date the approval. Thus the 7" round E-code was never legal. Retailers will tell you all about this when you buy these items, by law they have to.
The truth is the E-code lights are better quality than DOT "sealed beams". They have a distinct cut-off in the tops of the light projection patterns that keep the light out of the on coming lane of traffic, and spread the light upwards and out to the right.
Personally, I like the look of the US spec. rounded trim rings for the 7" lens. It carries the theme of the car style all the way to the lights. The euro lens looks as if the fender fronts were chopped with an axe. My opinion.
I have 7" Marchal E-code lens, with H4's at standard watt hi/low. They work great. Of course, I only drive this illegal car "off road only".
The term "sealed beam" is used too often to clearly define the type of lens/bulb. Like "fuel injection" is used. If the bulb alone can not be replaced when the filament burns out, then the the whole lens/reflector/bulb must be. How good do you think the lens is in one of these throw away lamps, for a 2 cent filament?
The term H4 also suffers. Porsche people use the term most often to refer to the european lamp assembly (lens/bulb/trim rings). H4 is just one of several replacable bulbs (H1, H2,...) that fit the european standard headlamp designs (commonly called E-code.
There are two H4 systems for 911's. One uses the angled flat face lens with thin trim rings to fill between the lamp and the car body. The other uses the traditional (DOT) 7" diameter hemi-spherical (dome) lens, with the larger more rounded shaped trim rings. The former is the european spec package, the later is the US. DOT version. Porsche could not import cars for sale to the US with lights that were not DOT spec certified. Sometime late in the 1980's this was changed. Prior to that change a car is not US DOT legal if it has headlights installed that are not the type certified for it's year of manufacture. So even if the 1989 911's came with the flat faced european style (trim ring), and you install these on your 1982, it is not legal. There is no "grandfather clause" to back date the approval. Thus the 7" round E-code was never legal. Retailers will tell you all about this when you buy these items, by law they have to.
The truth is the E-code lights are better quality than DOT "sealed beams". They have a distinct cut-off in the tops of the light projection patterns that keep the light out of the on coming lane of traffic, and spread the light upwards and out to the right.
Personally, I like the look of the US spec. rounded trim rings for the 7" lens. It carries the theme of the car style all the way to the lights. The euro lens looks as if the fender fronts were chopped with an axe. My opinion.
I have 7" Marchal E-code lens, with H4's at standard watt hi/low. They work great. Of course, I only drive this illegal car "off road only".
02-07-2003, 08:37 PM
#19
Instructor
Thread Starter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The term "sealed beam" is used too often to clearly define the type of lens/bulb. Like "fuel injection" is used. If the bulb alone can not be replaced when the filament burns out, then the the whole lens/reflector/bulb must be. How good do you think the lens is in one of these throw away lamps, for a 2 cent filament?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That's precisely what I was getting at...I would spend the extra and do the european housing conversion if these "sealed beam" H4s were meant to be disposable.
I think what I'm going to do is get the 7" E code lens with H4 bulbs. One other thing that is slighly confusing, the Hellas on my jetta have "H4" stamped in the glass on the lens which is why I thought that H4 refered to the cut of the lens itself.
So these are the 7" E codes then?
<img src="http://darklotus.dyndns.org/media/forum_pics/pauls_cars/911/0.jpg" alt=" - " />
I think what I'm going to do is get the 7" E code lens with H4 bulbs. One other thing that is slighly confusing, the Hellas on my jetta have "H4" stamped in the glass on the lens which is why I thought that H4 refered to the cut of the lens itself.
So these are the 7" E codes then?
<img src="http://darklotus.dyndns.org/media/forum_pics/pauls_cars/911/0.jpg" alt=" - " />
02-10-2003, 04:20 AM
#20
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Hey Wil.. I run 100w on low beam.. no problem with on comming traffic.. the 911 is low enough to do this.. but to run real bulbs, like Narva, you gotta do a full system upgrade..
and HID are OK for most guys.. I can't use them because I need the off-center light.. the HID also cramp my eyeballs on curves on black night roads.. adjusting real 100w bulbs can be a personal thing.. screw a shop doing the adjustment.. anyway adjusting is another story.. and Kevin, KLehmann, will probably start a new thread as soon as he does his up-grade, LOL..
and HID are OK for most guys.. I can't use them because I need the off-center light.. the HID also cramp my eyeballs on curves on black night roads.. adjusting real 100w bulbs can be a personal thing.. screw a shop doing the adjustment.. anyway adjusting is another story.. and Kevin, KLehmann, will probably start a new thread as soon as he does his up-grade, LOL..
02-10-2003, 10:56 AM
#21
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I have the Euro H-4's and I got them from GPR, they have some of the best prices on the H-4's and are one of a few that have Euro versions, not DOT legal... but who cares, I don't, and they really make a difference !
02-10-2003, 01:23 PM
#22
Farv....
The lamp assemblies in your picture are the "European" lens and trim ring, with H4 bulbs (I assume, as I can't see in to the reflector housing). The lens protrudes from the trim rings at the top, and the face of the lens glass is pretty flat. The trim rings are thin in width. Note trim rings were available in chrome or primer (to paint a color), for both the european and US DOT parts.
For comparison the US DOT trim ring is wider at the top, and none of the lens glass (well maybe just 3/8" if your lights are adjusted to the max at top) protrudes beyond the trim ring.
See Cibie.com for pictures of the 7" round DOT lens. It is just like all other 7" rounds in external dimensions (like that came on all US 911's originally), per spec. However it has the e-code pattern in the lens and accomodates the replaceable H-4 bulbs.
The lamp assemblies in your picture are the "European" lens and trim ring, with H4 bulbs (I assume, as I can't see in to the reflector housing). The lens protrudes from the trim rings at the top, and the face of the lens glass is pretty flat. The trim rings are thin in width. Note trim rings were available in chrome or primer (to paint a color), for both the european and US DOT parts.
For comparison the US DOT trim ring is wider at the top, and none of the lens glass (well maybe just 3/8" if your lights are adjusted to the max at top) protrudes beyond the trim ring.
See Cibie.com for pictures of the 7" round DOT lens. It is just like all other 7" rounds in external dimensions (like that came on all US 911's originally), per spec. However it has the e-code pattern in the lens and accomodates the replaceable H-4 bulbs.
