ZX3tuning

Hey guys!
Last summer my father and i purchased a 88 930 turbo as a joint project. basically, he gets cheap parts thru me and free labour and i get to enjoy the car along with him or without him. but the more time i spend working on the car and driving it, the more i realise i'd like to get one of my own.

anyways, i have been searching the classifieds and ebay for the last few months looking at cars and prices to the point where i have a good idea of what dollar amount will buy me what. but i'm interested in a enthusiast view on these cars. the 930T is my first porsche to work on so it is all still very new to me.

i've always been a fan of the clean look of the old RSR's sort of like this one...


i'm just wondering what year and engine would provide the best platform to work with. the idea of swapping in a larger engine has crossed my mind unless of course a standard 2.8L or whatever would be capable of putting a smile on my face.

i'd just like to get some opinions on years and engines that would be a good place to start a new project with. the end result would be a semi-track, semi-street car to play with when the weather was nice.

thanks in advance

Gary R.

I'm sure Jack Olsen will differ (that's his car BTW) but I think the perfect place to start is with a 3.0L SC in rust-free, well maintained good shape. As you can afford it add some stiffer torsion bars, Smart Racing sways and adjustable camber bar, Perf. Friction pads w/ATE Blue fluid flush, Roll cage and seats that allow a 6 point harness and your ready to go! Personally I would add the cage/seats/harness FIRST if doing it piecemeal.. saftey mods should always be 1st!

earlyapex

The 930 was the first Porsche that caught my eye as a kid. It's got all the right curves. I would get a 89 if you can find one. The 5 speed gear box is much better than the previous 4 speeds. There's allot you can do to the engine to minimize the turbo lag inherent in these cars. It only takes money and time of course We only live once.

Edward

If aspiring to an RSR look, there are lots of guys out there (try the Pelican board) who can guide you with do's and don'ts ...and Jack O's car certainly is a verrry nice example ...lightened, 3.6, 17"lindseys ...ooohhh

But as for which platform to begin with, lots of variables here. An SC is a superb start, with a fully galvanized body, mild flares, the venerable 3.0, and is the lightest of all the 78-89 bodies --all contribute to a good platform on which to build. BUT, if you're thinking really lightweight, go with a longhood car (69-73) which starts out a several hundred lbs lighter than an SC or later, and it already gives you the nose/hood toward the RS or RSR look you're after. But they are pricey in good shape as they are desireable, lots of them out there that are "project priced" are rust infested, and they are more prone to rust than the galvanized bodies (may not be a factor for you if it's a fair-weather-only car).

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but this is also a costly venture any way you look at it. Even if you do have a bead on cheaper parts, you may want to get a better idea of cost-expectations form those who have gone to the RS Dark Side. Best of luck to you ...sounds like great fun and a wonderful way to spend time with dad!

Edward

ZX3tuning

well, the 930Turbo we already have has given me a taste of the cost of working with these cars. then again, i also have a Ford Focus that has close to $50,000cnd into it plus the cost of the car, so wasting money on a car is nothing new to me! All Sparco inside, full European body conversion and more power than you can shake a stick at at any rpm! Granted, once i'm finished the engine build i'm in the middle of with the focus, our 930 Turbo will have a hard time shaking or even keeping up with it on the track or street but that is another story. :P

If i went with the long-nose body style, the RSR look would be my ideal end result. if i went with the newer 930 body of the SC i'd probably opt for the RUF yellowbird look down the road, i'm just more interested in which would be the best platform to build off. I have a bit of a thing for the Targa bodies so my question about those are they strong enough for serious weekend track use and AutoXing or would i need to cage it as opposed to just a roll bar with a coupe body??


As far as engines go, again i'm to new to this brand to have a good idea of what mods will produce what gains...
Can you get 250+rwhp out of the 3L without having a really peaky NA setup?
what would it take to get there?

as far as suspensions go, how exactly is the size of a torsen bar related to the stiffness and lowering is accomplished how with these bars??
Bumpsteer?

Remember, i'm coming from high powered(in relitave terms) small FWD cars so i'm used to a completely different style of suspension setups.

any help you guys can give me would be great!

Thanks again.


oh and here is our 930...
B&B headers
K27 Hyflow S turbo
ImagineAuto Intake
Ported fuel head
Powerhaus exhuast
Imagine custom Wireset
Kokeln long neck intercooler
1bar wastegate spring
HKS EBC
993 Brembo BigRed brakes Front and Rear
Innovate LC-1

r911

Can you get 250+rwhp out of the 3L without having a really peaky NA setup?
- no, not at the rear wheels
what would it take to get there?
- 3.2L heads, hot cam, maybe twin-plugs to support higher CR

as far as suspensions go, how exactly is the size of a torsen bar related to the stiffness and lowering is accomplished how with these bars??
- think of a torsion bar as a coil spring that has been unwound and twisted after being stretched out. or did you want the mathematical relationship?? if so, do a search here or on pelican
- you reindex them to lower the car or raise it -- remove and reset on a different "gear tooth" - it's more complicated in practice b/c there are two sets of teeth with a different # teeth on each one to allow finer calibration.
- small adjustments can be made with adj'l spring plates

Bumpsteer?
- it exists ... can you be more specific?

ZX3tuning

so say, 3.0L with 3.2L heads, twin plug, hot cam(how hot? ideas? brands?), 10:1cr? 11:1cr? 12:1cr?
headers, freeflow exhaust... would that get me to 250rwhp? where would the powerband be? 3k-6k? 4k-8k? 6k+?
What would that cost, roughly?

so bigger bars = stiffer spring rates, ok.
how does one set this up for a street/serious track? again, i'm used to small FWD cars where big rear sways and stiff rear springs and dampening with a lot of power up front and an LSD make for a very neutral setup... more rear bar than front with more front sway than rear?

i see places listing Bumpsteer kits for large amounts of lowering i think, i'm just not familiar with this term or what these kits would do...?

thanks for your help!

r911

You are going to have to define you desires re usage first. Then, I'd call Steve Weiner in Portland - he's not far from you and can give you advise on what to do, what to DIY and what to be certain is done only by an expert, not be a regualr repair shop. He might post as he monitors this bbs, but I think your questions are pretty diffuse right now - so you need to hone them. The perfect street car cannot be the perfect race car... and that is true in terms of almost every mechanical subsystem on the vehicle.

I don't know of anyone that does race motor stuff or semi-race in Seattle or in BC - maybe there is somebody closer... There are several top notch people in N. and s. Calif. but why go so far.

Porsche designed in a certain amount of bump steer on purpose. That is b/c of some - ah - compromises in the F suspension design. (they have progressively taken it out with the 964-993-996 sequence.) Bump steer increases as you lower the car and there are ways to compensate - here is the Wheaties version:
1. stock height - leave alone
2. Slightly lowered for mostly street use -- minor DE use -- add the spacers - they are like big Al washers about 1 cm thick & come with longer bolts.
3. lowered for racing - modify F struts by dropping the spindles

For more info do a search:
There is an excellent bump steer thread on Pelican and it was active just a day or two ago - add Tyson or TRE to your search terms and it should pop up easily. that will give more info for race conditions.

r911

oh yeh -- Wayne Dempsey's engine book gives some great examples of typical hotrod motors to build and has pretty pics in it -- buy that

Bruce Anderson "wrote the book" on hotrodding a 911 - but it is getting a bit long in the tooth. It is still the most comprehensive book out there.

read thru both and take notes to get started.
Beyond those, you are getting into the realm of secrets and custom building that is more tuned to you & your use.

The delay inherent in getting & reading the books will also give you time to apply for that 2nd mortgage on your house -- you might need it...

I haven't said anything about light weight either... that is critical to making a car handle. I researched what others have done and what is really effective (as oppossed to "worthless fru-fru" to quote famed backpack maker Dana) before lightening my car. Thom kindly posted some docs I made up on his web site at rennlight.com -- take a look at the comparison table and then peruse the wt. database. There are also links to Jim Calzia's fabulous wt. tables and to article on his and other notable lightwt. cars.

ZX3tuning

usage:
Mainly street but flexable enough to hold it's own for track days and AutoX's
I do not need ANOTHER race car, that is what the Focus is for.... Laugh if you like.
I'm fully aware of the trade offs between the perfect race and street setups, but I'm fairly sure with some of the many tricks I have learned over the years with other cars will cross over and apply to this car. It's amazing what you can do with a good standalone and a laptop! :P

I know there are a couple of small outfits within a few hours from me, none of which would share much in the way of setup info without a large scale purchase. But having the ability to buy parts through my business at dealer rates pretty much rules that out as an option.... like you said, it's giving away "secrets" and custom building.

I'll be taking our 930 turbo to Stephen at IA next summer for an "Estage" while we tear down the motor for a complete rebuild to 500+ and 500+. this is part of the reason why I'm planning on doing most of the work on this car myself as a new project. Going for a drive to a reputable shop is not an issue for me assuming I'll get my time and money out of it over going to some local small outfit.

Basically, what I'd like to do is most of the leg work now so I can blaze thru the build side of the project quickly without always having to stop and ask questions as I go. I have seen the packages offered by places like Elephant Racing, I just have no idea where to start...


Thanks for the info though, what are the exact names of those books and where can I get them? Are there any other books about building Street/Race 911s; suspension, body etc I should look for at the same time?

Any comments on the Targa's chasis working for what I want to do?


Thanks again, you have been tons of help!

earlyapex

Targa's are flexible. You want a stiff chasis.

Edward

If you want 250rwhp from a 3.0, you're looking at a full rebuild with some choice pieces, and most likely going to 3.2+. You can get close to that figure, in a sense, by lightening the snot out of it. The power will definitely be there with a 911 under 2300 lbs.

As for suspension setup, sounds like you want a 75% street car so you don't need to go too radical, especially if you already have a purpose-build track car. Lots of opinions on this: do a search, and you'll find a host of opinions/setups out there. PM me for specifics on my setup, (I've done lots of legwork on mine before doing what I did) if you like, but Randy's recommendation on the books and Steve W. is a good recommendation.

As for a Targa, if you want stiff suspension, forget about it. The Targa is a great street car, and it has it's perks for sun-lovers. But any suspension/bushings stiffer than "mildly" beyond stock and I don't think you're going to be happy. You want a "flexible" car?? ...this is it, and not the "flexibility" you want. Sure folks put their Targas on the track, but they know all too well that you want a full cage to stiffen the chassis; a roll bar isn't going to aid in stiffness, it's there for safety. A coupe is really the way to go here. Unless, of course, you DO want a mildly-suspended car for DE and are willing to accept the sun as a priority over handling ...not a bad thing; it is your priorities that are important.

Edward

2002M3Drew

See the 3.6 swap threads as well. It seems like more and more people are going that route and are quite happy with it.

You could find an SC body with either a bad motor or no motor, and do a 3.6 conversion for around $10K USD, apparently. That gives you at least 247 crank HP, but much easier to get from there to 250 RWHP with chips, exhaust than from a 3.0/3.2.

ZX3tuning

Thanks guys, more good info.
the 3.6 was in what year/model?
250rwhp is sort of the minimun i was looking at for power, if i can get more, i'd be even happier.
ideally i'd like to do it in the most relibale package possible; headers, exhaust, chip, intake, maybe cams and a ported head. other than that, i'd preffer not the touch the pistons if possible. Unless of course the benifits would outweigh the pitfalls/cost.

i'd have to agree, 75% street, 25% track/autox is probably what this car will end up seeing.
i'd like flexability in the car to allow me to make minor changes to suit the conditions of the track, AutoX course or street. not i do not want a chasis that flexes! :P
i do not want an insanely stiff chasis or suspension, i just want something that will a be agressive enough to handle a hard day at the track or hold it's own on the street... more so on the street.

r911

People have stiffened targas... you can search on Pelican...

I'd also consider the quality of the streets in Vancouver - since it's Canada, I'd assume they repair more often and better than the US.

Generally, I'd stay at stock or close to it. Also, you know about redoing all the rubber suspension pieces on an old car (?)

People need to be paid for their expertise/secrets, etc. That said, Steve Weiner is very generous with his time on the forum. He might post, or you could post a msg to him. I personally would not call unles I was about to buy something.