JonT.

I am researching which option I should do to upgrade my engine. I am looking at either having my cams reground and new pistons along with exhaust upgrades to ssi's and dual outlet (as described at Pelican Parts article by Noah Pollak "Extracting Power from CIS 911's") OR doing a full 3.6 swap.

Obviously there are cost considerations and I need to know these too.

Has anyone done either of these upgrades to their SC and how much did they cost in total?
What was the power increase?
Was it substantial?
Worth the $$?
Would you do it again and what would you do differently?

Im open to other suggestions as well and would like to know from someone who has lived and learned!

Thanks,
Jon

Bill Gregory

Jon,

You didn't say where you are from - sounds like emissions testing isn't a concern for you. You really can't do alot with CIS on the engine. Read Bruce Anderson's "911 Performance Handbook", and there's some info in the 911SC FAQ.

If you want a meaningful increase, trash CIS and go to PMO carb's. Cost? Figure larger Mahle's from Andial $4K, SSI's and oil lines $2K, new muffler $200-$1000, PMO's maybe $1200-$2000 (sorry don't remember the going price any closer), oh, and labor, maybe 40 hours at what, $85/hour, is $3400. Probably $10K-$13K. I think a 3.6L conversion will run around the same. Another oh, you'll of course upgrade the suspension and brakes to handle the added performance capabilities. That's probably, off the cuff, around $2K-$3K for suspension and $2K-$5K for brakes (depending of course on what you do). Oh, you wanted big reds for brakes? Add another $1500-$3200 for new 17" wheels since 16" rims don't fit over big red brake calipers. Of course on any of these dollars, some can be reduced with used pieces, careful shopping, or if you can do your own labor.

But keep things balanced - if you do a significant engine upgrade, make sure the brakes and suspension can handle it, keeping everything in balance.

Chris Martin

I cannot offer experience on the upgrade, but have been going through a similar debate in my head for some time now. I was really psyched about the 3.6 upgrade for my SC. Then, after hearing about Thom's woes, I have had second thoughts. While I really love my SC, and have put lots of time and $$ into it, I dont think I want to upgrade it. If I could get decent $$ for the SC I think I would be better off buying a newer car. If get ~13-15k for the SC and find a 964 for ~27-32k I you have about the same invested as doing the 3.6 swap into your car. I am sure you can do it for less, and for more though. Then you can start to upgrade it if you want, exhaust and so on. The idea of a light weight simpler car is very appealling to me, but I would be a little concerned about resale of a 3.6 SC. I think your market would be smaller than if it was stock. Plus, you never seem to recoupe money spent on mods.


Just my 2 cents

Chris

81 SC

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>Plus, you never seem to recoupe money spent on mods.</strong><hr></blockquote>

For the sake of planning, you should assume you will be lucky to recover 50% of any modification expense. I don't have empirical data on that, it just seems to be one of those generally accepted guidelines. That's why it's always cheaper to buy someone else's upgraded Porsche. You see this particularly on the racing side of things.

Carrera51

Bill is right on the money.

A long time instructor in my region (Potomac) once told me that you would be lucky if you get back 50% of what you invest in your car (if its a track car) and that is, if the car is a winning car.

If I were ever to sell my 911, I would be hard pressed to get back half what I have in it. Its set up just the way I like it, and I don't plan on selling it so, oh well.

JonT.

ok so if the 3.6 swap is not recommended, what about the cam grind to 964 specs and JE piston, ring, wrist pin and clip upgrade (along with exhaust ssi and muffler)??? The article claims 240 horses?? all this for $1400 for cams,pistons, $2000 for mufflers and ssi = $3400. This seems very reasonable--what am i missing?

Bill Gregory

[quote]
<strong>ok so if the 3.6 swap is not recommended, what about the cam grind to 964 specs and JE piston, ring, wrist pin and clip upgrade (along with exhaust ssi and muffler)??? The article claims 240 horses?? all this for $1400 for cams,pistons, $2000 for mufflers and ssi = $3400. This seems very reasonable--what am i missing?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't know why a 3.6L swap is not recommended. It's not inexpensive, but can be very satisfying. Thom Fitzpatrick ran into a bunch of troubles due to a rebuilt 3.6L engine that was badly rebuilt, requiring him to rebuild it again. If you get a 3.6L engine from a reliable source, it can work great for you. The stock 3.6L power is intoxicating, and in a lighter chassis would be great.

If I were upgrading the pistons/cylinders, I'd want to stay with Mahle, as they have alot to recommend them. There are other sources, you have to be the judge of what will work for you. Mahle's aren't inexpensive, however. Andial quoted me $4,000 for the 3.2 p/c's SC upgrade parts. Another limitation is that CIS won't support a wild cam. Maybe the 964 cam profile will work. SSI's work fine on a 3.0L engine, and the pipes start to be too small on larger engines. So, while you might get 15-20hp on a 3.0L, you might get 10-15hp, or less, on a 3.2L and less on a 3.6L. On a 3.6L the SSI's actually constrain the system. Regarding the 240hp claim...if the person did a before and after on the same equipment, that's what would count. Otherwise, you're comparing 240hp against what? The factory 180hp? Apples and oranges.

And just to be overly repetitive, if you upgrade your engine, you need to consider upgrading your suspension and brakes. There's a track adage that says before you can go fast you have to be able to go slow....

JonT.

the article i read is at <a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_engine_rebuild/911_engine_rebuild2.htm" target="_blank">www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_engine_rebuild/911_engine_rebuild2.htm</a>

Howard

Jon,

I went through this about 2 years ago. The 3.0 L motor was just not enough power, so I removed the CIS, replaced the cams, mounted Webers, headers, open exhaust, ported/polished,....and after $8,000 invested the output was maybe 220hp. So then I had the same amount of power as a late 3.2....I should have just swapped the 3.0 for a 3.2, much cheaper. A year later the 3.2 just wasn't enough power, so I modified it to 3.4 liter and higher compression, cams, new carbs,etc., and another $8,000. Hindsight is always 20/20, if I could do it over I would have just dropped in a 3.6, with 50mm PMO's with wild cams and the engine would output around 320hp.
Go with a 3.6, if your resources allow, if not drop in a 3.2. It's much more expensive to increase the power rather than just increasing the displacement. JMO

JackOlsen

Advantages of a swap (Thom's experiences notwithstanding, and with loads of qualifications. Jeez, I ought to be a lawyer...):

The total project cost for a swapped engine will be generally cheaper than tweaking a smaller engine in combination with a rebuild. Rebuilds tend to begin optimistically, and then mushroom in terms of complications, time and expense as they proceed. A swapped engine, properly checked out, is generally going to be 'already there' when you get it. I paid $5,000 for a 964 engine with 17,000 miles on it. It cost me $650 to ship it in from Germany. I spent about $1800 on parts for the engine swap, and $1500 in labor. If you can sell your exiting engine for, say $3,500, then the total cost of the swap (not including mods to brakes, suspension, oil cooling) can be as low as $5,500. In my case (replacing a 2.2 T engine), that's about $40/horse.

A low-mileage swapped engine brings you Porsche factory reliability, versus the riskier nature of engine rebuilding by a small shop. There are a lot of great engine rebuilders out there. But if you take a step back and look at what they're able to invest in creating consistent, reliable powerplants versus what the Porsche factory is able to do (and in fact has to do), you see -- just from the point of view of sheer scale -- that you're taking a larger statistical risk with a custom-built engine.

On a related note, long-term durability of a swap is probably going to be better than a tweaked engine. Even if the engine is perfectly put together, you're going to generally (don't get me wrong, there are always exceptions) have a less durable engine if you're maxing out what the components of that engine are being asked to do. Again, not to say that an Andial-built engine is in any way inferior to any other. A lot of the individual components will be much better. But generally speaking, there's a continuum between what the factory needs the engines to do (perform reliably, in a wide variety of environments, to keep warranty costs to a minimum) and what, say, a professional race team needs their engines to do (last for as long as the next race, after which point the engeind can be rebuilt. Tweaked engines all fall somewhere along this line, but they're generally going to be designed to outperform factory engines with the same displacement, more than they’re being designed to outlast them.

So that I don't receive a flood of angry responses, here, let me re-state that I think tweaked engines are great, when built by a reputable shop, and will probably often last as long or longer than their factory-sealed equivalents. But broadly speaking, the Porsche factory is able to devote resources to producing consistent, reliable engines that dwarf the capabilities of a shop that's building ten or twenty engines a year. And it's true: with a swapped engine, there's the additional risk of the engine possibly suffering abuse at the hands of a previous owner. I'm not trying to make an unequivocal pronouncement on custom engines.

But I think there are some sets of circumstances (mine, for example) where a swapped engine makes more economic sense than rebuilding what you've got.

JBrown

jon is right. all the money you will spend to get horses out of a sc you might as well drop a newer motor in it. i have a 83 sc and love the car but could not live with the modest horsepower. so after months of talking to shops i decided to drop a turbo motor in the car. it is going to cost me about 11,000 to 12,000 for a 3.2 shortstroke motor rebuilt. plus i have to install it and upgrade suspention and brakes. the smartest thing to do is to sell and buy what you want. but if you have a love for your car either drive it as it is or drop a new motor in it. just so you no i was tolld on a 12,000 budget you would get about 230 to 240 horses out of an sc motor. not worth it if you ask me.

Bill Verburg

Lots of good advice above here, and I'd like to add my nickels worth;
First decision- is the rest of the car a keeper?
If so do you plan on keeping it or do you swap cars like winter coats, as it was pointed out mods do not have a good return on investment, but if you are building something for yourself then the psychic return is priceless.

Second decision- What is your goal? Are you building for a racing class, drag racer, fun hot rod, 80%track/20%street, 80%street/20%track how finicky a power plant will you put up with? How much maintainace, emission laws, noise ordinances? Plan out the project in its entirety. Visualize the final package down to the last nut and bolt.

Third decision- budget and scope. Are you just looking for a little more zip or have you always lusted for an RSR, complete with body work, brakes suspension, wheels etc. Are you willing to spend $3000?, $10000? where's the limit?

Fourth decision- If all out performance is desired then the choice of turbo or NA comes up. A turbo is hands down the most powerful powerplant that you can use, it is also the most expensive and potentially least reliable. In addition some of us just like cams and compression(I'm in the latter group). If NA is your choice then there is no substitute for cubic centimeters; hence a 3.6, if you compare the price of a built 3 liter vs a slightly modded 3.6 liter(as used in a transplant), the 3.6 is cheaper, more reliable, has as much(or better)hp, has more torque and will require the least amount of skilled(high priced) labor. If an all out engine is built, an all out big engine will always beat an all out small engine. Just be sure to get a good donor(it never pays to buy someone elses problems)

Fifth decision- are the std. brakes/wheels/tires/suspension sufficient? As with the engine there is a wide range of prices and capabilities for each of these components. Fortunately it all does not have to be done(or paid for) all at once. One of the allures of mods is the bite size nature of the process.

JackOlsen

Are you willing to spend $3000?, $10000? Where's the limit?

A question my wife asks me on a regular basis.

Dean

Put a turbo in. I did and I would do it again. Yes it is a little costly but it is a Porsche after all. I haven't figured out how much it cost (I don't think I want to know) but I would guess including the brake upgrade around $10k. I bought a low cost motor with some problems. Test drive a turbo, that will help you make up your mind
Dean

Ant

I went for SSI's and have a set of webers to go on my 3.0, and intend to do some headwork as was.
As i see it, it may be cheaper to just drop a bigger engine in, but I enjoy the challenge of extracting the power from the existing unit. After all If i wanted the easy route i would just go out and buy a 993 but I like my car and like to play with it. So ask yourself why you want to mod your car is purely for performance or because you enjoy the challange and can say I did that.

Ant