Ken Pacera

I know it's really relative to how well a car has been maintained, but when do you say that's just too many miles?

I've talked with the seller of a 1982 911sc that has 185k miles on the original engine (never had heads off) and transmission. All the standard and preventative maintenance is said to have been preformed on a regular basis to the extreme. Let's assume the car has been meticulously maintained and cared for, had only 2 owners and spent most of its life in Calf.:

1) Will a thorough PPI be enough to determine how much life the 3.0l has left in it?
2) Are there people out there who typically get well over 200k miles on their well cared for 911sc?
3) Being very new to Porsches (just started shopping for one last month) when I hear 185k miles I can't help but feel that there's going to be a lot more $ invested in that car in the very near future

I know these questions are probably unanswerable, without all the details in place, but I just trying to get a feel from knowledgeable Porsche owners who may have been down this road.

Thanks,
Ken

JBH

Whew - 185K with no rebuild is a lot of miles.

1. A PPI will tell you if the vehicle has any obvious problems. It will not tell you how much life is left or what to expect in the way of repairs.

2. I would say that 200,000+ miles without a rebuild is not typical, but the exception.

3. I think it reasonable to expect to have to rebuild the engine within 20 to 40K miles. You face other problems such as failure of the clutch, syncros, fuel pump, oil pump, valve guides/springs, shocks, bushings,etc.

If the price is right, the body (must be rust free) and interior are in great shape, and the electricals are all perfectly functional, I would say you have a great car to build on. The price must reflect the fact that there are going to be a number of expenses ahead.

It can be particularly attractive if you want to learn the intricacies of the car by doing all or portions of the work yourself - then it becomes like a hobby.

Ken Fredrickson

Hi Ken,
I have owned my 82sc for 17 of its 19years. It now has 273K miles on it. I had the pressure fed tensioners installed at 213,ooo miles. The 'top end' (valves,rings,etc.)was done at 233K. That was the first time the engine had been taken out. Yes it still had the original clutch. It has been 2 1/2 years ago, another 40,000 miles no problems. I drive the car daily, and have autocrossed it. You should not be afraid of the 185k showing on a car that is 19 + years old. that translates to under 10k per year.
Make sure it has the updated chain tensioners, and a POP-OFF valve.
Good luck with your purchase. You didn't say how much the seller is asking.

kjell

Ken, these cars are well know to go to high
milage. However there are lower milage cars out there. I think it comes down to what your needs are. If you need a cheap car and
don't plan to drive it much a high milage
one may do the trick. I wanted a daily driver
and plan on putting 12,000 - 15,000 miles a
year on it so went for a low milage (83K)
car at a higher price. Ideally, any car you
buy should have complete records and a PPI
is very important, make sure they do a leak
down, check valve guides and look for broken
head studs (a common problem with SCs and
VERY expensive to fix).

GeorgeMa

Ken, how do you manage to do so many miles on the original clutch? This is amazing.

Ken Pacera

Asking just under $15k, pressure tensioner update, pop-off valve installed, 3rd clutch, new windshield, new motor mounts, shift bushings, complete new street/track suspension, new oil lines, interior reported to be 7 out of 10, 85% original paint, some minor digs, a/c works, serviced by PCA recommended mechanics, owner is Porsche enthusiast. Service records back to 20k miles.

Note: I have NOT seen the car yet, all info is from conversions with the owner.

Ken

JBH

Sounds good so far, but I think you need to see this car before buying. You are contemplating the purchase of a twenty year old car and there is no way to get an accurate view of all the many mechanicals and cosmetics without seeing it in person.

In addition to the engine and transmission, a car that old and with that many miles has suffered from wear to the rubber pieces, bearings, hoses, steering rack, brake system, undercarriage, electricals, etc.

You really haven't said what your budget is for this vehicle, but I guarantee over the next 5 years you could easily spend another $15K. Why not take the same money and put it up front to get a better car?

I still ascribe to Bruce Anderson's recommendation: buy the newest car you can find (assuming it doesn't have very high miles). I would only augment that by saying a restored vehicle (if done right) may be a great entry Porsche at a cost lower than newer cars.

Sorry, but I don't think a new buyer should face the prospect of numerous repairs in the first few years of ownership. Just my opinion...

Bill Gregory

Ken,

You may know this already...in the August Excellence, Bruce Anderson gave the 1982 SC poor/good/excellent values of $12,861/$14,623/20,550. If the owner has kept up with maintenance as needed, it's probably worth looking at. Use the apparent high mileage to chew the price down, and, of course, have a pre-purchase inspection done.

Dial 911

And yes, it was His Eminence, Bruce Anderson, who made the reliability and longevity of the 3.0 SC engine a legend in it's own time.

Bruce is fond of telling the tales of many 3.0's with not only 200k on the clocks, but well over 300 with little more than fuel, oil, and spark plugs required.

So it's a fact...the 3.0 has a service life (with performance to boot) that 2.7 owners can only dream about. But then again, some people could bust an anvil without even trying!!

Ken Pacera

"JBH: Sorry, but I don't think a new buyer should face the prospect of numerous repairs in the first few years of ownership. Just my opinion..."

I'm not expecting it to be perfect, but you are correct - I don't want the car in the shop more than the road, especially because it would be my first one.

"Dial 911: Bruce is fond of telling the tales of many 3.0's with not only 200k on the clocks, but well over 300 with little more than fuel, oil, and spark plugs required."

I guess at this point it's really the additional after purchase money it will take to get that extra 100k out of the car. Another $15k like JBH mentions? That's a real concern. I can accept some garage time and cost, but if it going to take close to $30k (purchase $ and near future repair/update costs) I'd be in over my head.

I posted the following message on the 911 mail list about a week ago:

"My question to all those with experience (I've never owned a Porsche, just a number of British sport cars form the 60s-70s) - Is it reasonable to find a used 911 that can be used about 3-4 times per week for transportation (20 miles to and from work - all highway) and for weekend pleasure in my price range." Given a $15k budget plus or minus a couple thousand, I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to do.

Ken

TYPE911

Ken~
You stated your budget was $15K plus or minus a few thousand. If I were you I would look for a lower mileage 911sc. The car you are contemplating certainly sounds ok, but with the mileage you never know.
I bought my 1982 911sc Targa 2 years ago for $18500...2 owner car, all records to day 1, concours condition, 28,000 miles, all it needed was a pop-valve & 30k service.
The only $ I have spent so far for repairs (knock on wood !) is a broken clutch cable.
Not bad for 10,000 miles of driving.

Good Luck

-Chris

JBH

I think Chris is correct Ken - while it may be difficult to find a newer/low mileage car in your price range, you need to be patient about this.

Chris' car demonstrates that it is possible to get an exceptional deal - perhaps you need to broaden your search radius a bit.

In the end, patience is rewarded.

nostatic

I agree...keep looking (although I wouldn't totally rule this one out). I'm in the same boat as you...looking for a semi-daily driver and not spending so much that my wife kills me. I've looked at about 5 or 6 SC's so far, and I'm starting to get a feel for price/condition/etc. I haven't gotten to PPI stage yet because I'm not quite ready to pull the trigger, and haven't seen the one that sent me. That being said, I have found a few cars that are sub-100K that are within budget (like you, $15K is a target price). But no one criteria is the be-all/end-all. I'd feel better with a higher mileage vehicle if it was 1 or 2 owner with all records and a clean PPI versus a low mileage one with gaps and questions.

That being said I am pondering whether I should spend another $10K up front and get an '87-89 carerra. Although I'm not sure that would make a significant difference in the amount of money spent in the years after purchase...the SC's seem pretty bombproof is taken care of.

Seth

I just bought a 1980 911SC a month ago from a guy in VA. It had no rust, 83k miles, no updated chain tensioners, popoff valve or spring centered clutch and I payed 13k. I had trouble passing emissions till I realized the oxygen sensor wasnt hooked up! Otherwise no problems yet. I'm buying a new spark plug wiring set though since one of the caps broke.

TSN

I have an SC with 176,000 miles that I have driven about 100K and it has been extremely reliable. However, it is not my primary car and I drive it(fairly aggressively) when the mood strikes, and the maintenance and updates are all done on a regular basis. In fact, I sometimes think I unconsciously am hoping for catastrophic engine failure so that I will feel justified in making an engine upgrage, but so far I have been disappointed in that regard. But I admit, if it was my only transportation, I would probably have second thoughts (or drive the car much more conservatively!).

There was a thread in Pelican about mileage on these cars and I was surprised at the number of PLUS 200,000 miles on the SCs and carreras, including guys who track the cars!

In any event, it seems to be the case that you need to be careful with low mileage cars of this vintage for several reasons: 1st, it is supposedly the case that, without regular use, the engine seals can dry out and various forms of internal corrosion can occur, resulting in a low mileage engine more prone to failure than a higher mileage engine that saw regular use. 2nd, unless you are buying from the original owner who is a reputable person, it is all too easy to replace the odometer with one that shows more favorable mileage.

Good luck. Tom