First post - curious about 911's
11-23-2005, 02:39 PM
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Cruisin'
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First post - curious about 911's
So, first post on Rennlist. I'll skip the introduction bit, let's just say that I think I'm getting tired of my S2 Avant as it is SO heavy and that I'm from Sweden. Nuff' said.
Now, I've always had a hard time making up my mind. When I bought the S2 Avant I have now, it was because it was around at the right time. Cheap too. Good solid car, a bit too solid. And, too heavy. No, aftar a few mods - engine, brakes, suspension, driveline - I started to realize that I don't want a project car for a daily driver, nor did I want a project car that was this much of a daily driver to start with. So, I started to look towards UR-Q and other 4wd Audi, anything light and with "history" or attitude. Soon I sort of found my self looking a 911 C4's. But they are too expensive to buy. I mean, spending cash on it later is one thing, but the inital cost though...
So, I found a driveline from a C4 964.... And that got me going. Now I really need to have a sort of open discussion here, I mean, what do I need to think about?
How much does the stock pre-964 rear and front suspension suck compared to the 964--> models? I mean, sorry for the harsh language, but you'll see what I'm after. Also, what about the 935-style coil over rear suspension? Is that better or is it still pretty crappy? If I convert to coil over 935-ish rear - what do I do up front?
4wd is almost a must - I'd like to hear some pro's and con's from you guys though. I mean, I want a car that I can spank on ice tracks and on regular tracks... It's just a thought at this point.
Now, suppose I'd want to build my self a 4wd 911 - what do I start with? I was thinking abot a 1975 911, just 'cause that's the latest car you can get through MOT without any fuss (emissions!).
Now, front susp, rear susp.... If rear susp is 935, what do I use up front? MacP legs feels like it should be a breeze to fit - but will the car support it? I mean, the chassie isn't built to take the load in the shock towers, is it?
I realize that it would be a MAJOR rebuild/mod but for arguments skae, let's not concider that. Also, engine is not a big problem NOW, a 250hp would do. Easiest and cheapest way - stock C4 engine? Or?
Maybe it's a strange post, but I have all these ideas and I really need a slap in the face OR a kick in the hiny, you know, to straighten things out. Please, keep an open mind and point out the hard bits - but also the good stuff...
Now, I've always had a hard time making up my mind. When I bought the S2 Avant I have now, it was because it was around at the right time. Cheap too. Good solid car, a bit too solid. And, too heavy. No, aftar a few mods - engine, brakes, suspension, driveline - I started to realize that I don't want a project car for a daily driver, nor did I want a project car that was this much of a daily driver to start with. So, I started to look towards UR-Q and other 4wd Audi, anything light and with "history" or attitude. Soon I sort of found my self looking a 911 C4's. But they are too expensive to buy. I mean, spending cash on it later is one thing, but the inital cost though...
So, I found a driveline from a C4 964.... And that got me going. Now I really need to have a sort of open discussion here, I mean, what do I need to think about?
How much does the stock pre-964 rear and front suspension suck compared to the 964--> models? I mean, sorry for the harsh language, but you'll see what I'm after. Also, what about the 935-style coil over rear suspension? Is that better or is it still pretty crappy? If I convert to coil over 935-ish rear - what do I do up front?
4wd is almost a must - I'd like to hear some pro's and con's from you guys though. I mean, I want a car that I can spank on ice tracks and on regular tracks... It's just a thought at this point.
Now, suppose I'd want to build my self a 4wd 911 - what do I start with? I was thinking abot a 1975 911, just 'cause that's the latest car you can get through MOT without any fuss (emissions!).
Now, front susp, rear susp.... If rear susp is 935, what do I use up front? MacP legs feels like it should be a breeze to fit - but will the car support it? I mean, the chassie isn't built to take the load in the shock towers, is it?
I realize that it would be a MAJOR rebuild/mod but for arguments skae, let's not concider that. Also, engine is not a big problem NOW, a 250hp would do. Easiest and cheapest way - stock C4 engine? Or?
Maybe it's a strange post, but I have all these ideas and I really need a slap in the face OR a kick in the hiny, you know, to straighten things out. Please, keep an open mind and point out the hard bits - but also the good stuff...
11-23-2005, 11:42 PM
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11-24-2005, 07:55 AM
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Cruisin'
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Irony?
A little quote from my post:
"Soon I sort of found my self looking a 911 C4's. But they are too expensive to buy. I mean, spending cash on it later is one thing, but the inital cost though..."
That sort'a rules out 993's and 964's.
Can I bolt a C4 tranny to an older Porsche? Will the driveshafts fit? What do I do to get them to fit? Does the C4 and C2 have the same shafts?
How do I sort out the front susp of a 911Sc? Can I just build my own struts? Will the chassie deal with the forces going in through the shock towers? Anyone know of such a conversion? Pics? What kind of front susp does the 964 have? Possible to mount that on an older Porsche?
How will the rear suspension, 935 style, compare to a 964? Is it light-years apart? Is the 935 even half-decent?
On the 993 being superior - well I can't say that I believe you. A slimmed down version of something is almost never better, they've just taken off tech and turned it into a sales argument. Same evolution or de-evolution can be found in Audi Quattro systems....
"Soon I sort of found my self looking a 911 C4's. But they are too expensive to buy. I mean, spending cash on it later is one thing, but the inital cost though..."
That sort'a rules out 993's and 964's.
Can I bolt a C4 tranny to an older Porsche? Will the driveshafts fit? What do I do to get them to fit? Does the C4 and C2 have the same shafts?
How do I sort out the front susp of a 911Sc? Can I just build my own struts? Will the chassie deal with the forces going in through the shock towers? Anyone know of such a conversion? Pics? What kind of front susp does the 964 have? Possible to mount that on an older Porsche?
How will the rear suspension, 935 style, compare to a 964? Is it light-years apart? Is the 935 even half-decent?
On the 993 being superior - well I can't say that I believe you. A slimmed down version of something is almost never better, they've just taken off tech and turned it into a sales argument. Same evolution or de-evolution can be found in Audi Quattro systems....
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11-24-2005, 06:11 PM
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If a stock 964 C4 is out of your price range then buying an earlier 911 & converting it to 4wd will be WAAAAY out of your price range and then some!
Typical costs to convert an earlier (69-89) 911 to a 964 3.6 engine are $10,000- $16,000. I would think that converting to the 4wd system above must cost at the very least double that. Here 964 C4s go for $16,000-$25,000. No way could you make your own 4wd 911 for less than that.
Typical costs to convert an earlier (69-89) 911 to a 964 3.6 engine are $10,000- $16,000. I would think that converting to the 4wd system above must cost at the very least double that. Here 964 C4s go for $16,000-$25,000. No way could you make your own 4wd 911 for less than that.
11-24-2005, 10:55 PM
#9
Here's a very rough cost analysis in US Dollars:
Donor C4 with solid motor and drivetrain: $15,000
Donor 1975 911 with minimal rust: $5000
Labor and parts for conversion costs (based on nullH20's post) and electronics: $10,000
Paint: $5000
Interior Conversion: $2000
Misc: $1000 (there are always misc things)
Total: $38,000
After this is all done, you may still have a 2800 pound car.
$38,000 buys a really good early 993 C4.
$38,000 buys a extremely low mileage, Pebble Beach concours ready, fully documented, all maintenance performed, and no mechanical issues 964 C4 and you'll still have a few extra thousand left over. However, if you have a line on a C4 drivetrain, maybe your costs would be quite a bit less. Though, even $10k less and you'd still be behind on what a nice C4 could run.
Lightening a 964 C4 or a 993 C4 might be the best way to go if you wish for a light weigh 911 with AWD capabilities. I would think 200 pounds could be shed in a hurry with removal of A/C, interior components, etc.
Jay
90 964
Donor C4 with solid motor and drivetrain: $15,000
Donor 1975 911 with minimal rust: $5000
Labor and parts for conversion costs (based on nullH20's post) and electronics: $10,000
Paint: $5000
Interior Conversion: $2000
Misc: $1000 (there are always misc things)
Total: $38,000
After this is all done, you may still have a 2800 pound car.
$38,000 buys a really good early 993 C4.
$38,000 buys a extremely low mileage, Pebble Beach concours ready, fully documented, all maintenance performed, and no mechanical issues 964 C4 and you'll still have a few extra thousand left over. However, if you have a line on a C4 drivetrain, maybe your costs would be quite a bit less. Though, even $10k less and you'd still be behind on what a nice C4 could run.
Lightening a 964 C4 or a 993 C4 might be the best way to go if you wish for a light weigh 911 with AWD capabilities. I would think 200 pounds could be shed in a hurry with removal of A/C, interior components, etc.
Jay
90 964
11-24-2005, 10:57 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Henka
On the 993 being superior - well I can't say that I believe you. A slimmed down version of something is almost never better, they've just taken off tech and turned it into a sales argument. Same evolution or de-evolution can be found in Audi Quattro systems....
11-25-2005, 12:03 AM
#11
I like the engines and admit the suspension is more modern...
However, the quoted comment above is not accurate. The 993 uses an entirely different type of technology to achieve AWD than the 964 did - it happens to weigh a lot less. There was no slimming down of the 964 AWD to "take off the tech" (whatever that means). Educate yourself - start with Frere's book. It is failry comprehensive.
No one will seriously tell you the 964 is superior to the 993 - the 964, esp. the C4, is an orphaned model range -- the next orphan will be the 996 since it is eclipsed by the 997. The 2.7L cars were orphaned by the SC and etc.
They can still be great buys if sufficiently cheap.
However, the quoted comment above is not accurate. The 993 uses an entirely different type of technology to achieve AWD than the 964 did - it happens to weigh a lot less. There was no slimming down of the 964 AWD to "take off the tech" (whatever that means). Educate yourself - start with Frere's book. It is failry comprehensive.
No one will seriously tell you the 964 is superior to the 993 - the 964, esp. the C4, is an orphaned model range -- the next orphan will be the 996 since it is eclipsed by the 997. The 2.7L cars were orphaned by the SC and etc.
They can still be great buys if sufficiently cheap.
11-25-2005, 12:30 AM
#12
Randy,
Thanks for clarifying your position and thoughts. (I was kidding above!)
I think after the 964 was released, Porsche realized that the AWD system needed in a 911 didn't need to be as complex as the 964's system was and kept it more simple in the 993. I would assume that not many people are taking 964's in very poor (off) road conditions where maximum traction is needed. I'd be interested to know how many C4 owners use their differential lock. All that being said, I still think while the 964 system is complex, it's still relatively robust. Though the 993 system should hold up better (longer) since there are less components to fail.
Jay
90 964
Thanks for clarifying your position and thoughts. (I was kidding above!)
I think after the 964 was released, Porsche realized that the AWD system needed in a 911 didn't need to be as complex as the 964's system was and kept it more simple in the 993. I would assume that not many people are taking 964's in very poor (off) road conditions where maximum traction is needed. I'd be interested to know how many C4 owners use their differential lock. All that being said, I still think while the 964 system is complex, it's still relatively robust. Though the 993 system should hold up better (longer) since there are less components to fail.
Jay
90 964
11-25-2005, 03:32 AM
#13
Cruisin'
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I found a complete 964 C4 driveline for labout $1600 the other day here in Sweden. Could probably get it cheaper as it's been out for sale for a while now. That was with front suspension (struts, ARB, uprights, alla of it) and I kind of think that was cheap-ish. Now, I agree, a good 911, let's say a 82 SC (not that I'm going for a car that is newer than 75) would be around $10000. Naturally, with brakes, suspension, some interiour... I mean, yes, it will cost alot. But I still won't end up with big sums of cash going out at ones AND I won't be stuck with a loan to pay. I mean, with the S2 I have now, I did the same thing. I bought a cheap but solid car, fixed all the small problems and bought a new driveline, new brakes, suspension parts when I could find them cheap and had a opportunity to make a good deal. I must also admit, I have never even been able to order a pizza without modifying it. I'll never buy a "supercar" and just ride. It won't happen, sorry.
What I meant with "take off tech"... Weird expression. Don't know why I wrote it that way. What I meant was, I've never seen any imrpovment coming from a system that uses lower technological level. For instance the diff lock. In what way was the system improved when they removed the manual diff lock? It may well have been lighter but it lost a bit of technology instead. You are indeed right, I need to get a bit of reading done. I thought I had read enough to state what I did, apparently I didn't. No worries, I'll do a bit of researching.
What I meant with "take off tech"... Weird expression. Don't know why I wrote it that way. What I meant was, I've never seen any imrpovment coming from a system that uses lower technological level. For instance the diff lock. In what way was the system improved when they removed the manual diff lock? It may well have been lighter but it lost a bit of technology instead. You are indeed right, I need to get a bit of reading done. I thought I had read enough to state what I did, apparently I didn't. No worries, I'll do a bit of researching.