1986 911 Carrera Coupe (Fair Price?)
11-04-2005, 09:38 PM
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1986 911 Carrera Coupe (Fair Price?)
I'm looking at a 1986 911 Carerra Coupe. It looks like it's a two-owner car, with 174,000 miles on it. The car-fax shows a clean-title and no record of accidents, major incidents. The vehicle has some "dealer" service stamps up to 80K miles. Then the only record of service after the 80K is a spreadsheet with the vin-number on it and a series of items from approx 80K through 174K miles. I could not find any major service, ie clutch, engine work, transmission, synchros etc...in the records. I drove the vehicle, and performed the best "personal" PPI that I could while on the lot.There does not appear to be any oil leaks (at least anything significant) The car is in it's orginal paint (some minor paint chips etc...), and does not appear to have been wrecked. I could not find any rust on the pans, or in other "typical" areas. With all of that said, what is a fair price to pay for this vehicle (as is)? The vehicle does not have any "upgrades" that I can see, and appears to be stock. There is such a vast array of pricing out there...I wanted to do a santity check. The KBB/edmonds/NADA values show anywhere from $7K to $13K. I will have a PPI done before I would drop the cash.... Any thoughts would be appreciated.... 
Last edited by Slotcar; 11-16-2005 at 09:26 PM.
11-04-2005, 09:47 PM
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In good shape (and with a PPI from a good independent) $13-14K would be a reasonable price. An 86 is a good year. Subtract any nasties from there. imho
Ian
Ian
11-04-2005, 10:30 PM
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Possibly $12k to $15k. It will depend very much on the PPI. Try to be on the scene when they do it. At a minimum, you'll learn more about your car. And you may find that the mechanic is happy to share his/her observations first hand.
11-06-2005, 09:56 PM
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Slotcar,
I have the same year coupe and have been extremely pleased with it for two reasons:
1) I spent around $200.00 bucks on books, magazines, service manuals and the like to do decent research on what I wanted to buy (an '84-'89 Carrera 3.2L Coupe) and,
2) Spent $250.00 on a PPI for the car I focused in on and eventually bought.
If you're not sold on the 3.2L series then keep doing general researching. If you've tuned into these cars then by all means don't be afraid to spend some bucks on detailed research as to the nature of these cars. They're one of the most mass produced 911's ever made (a plus since many factory and after-market parts are available for the cars), one of the most well sorted out (few caveots) and also one of the most documented from a third party standpoint (read - Manuals & info readily available to beat the band).
There's a statement out there that essentially says that NO Porsche is less than a $20,000.00 car and my experience has shown that to be very true! If you don't spend it on the initial purchase you'll spend it on maintenance pretty quick.
Don't put too much stock in KBB/edmonds/NADA prices. They're not indicative of the 'real' price these cars go for - they're too low for good examples. They're like the coverage you'll get from a standard insurance company (State Farm, Allstate, etc.) - no where near what a good example is really worth - and what you'll eventually put into it.
A 15 to 20 year old car needs things and these things are not cheap to source. If you can't do alot of your own maintenance that may heavily impact your ability to bring the car up to snuff & maintain it. Your mileage may vary depending on your discretionary income.
Bruce Anderson's value article for 2004 in Excellence magazine pegs the 3.2L Carrera Coupe from a low around $13,700.00 for a poor '84 model to a high of around $24,600 for an excellent '89. The 1986 seems to rate from around $16,900 for poor to $25,800 for excellent (yes, better than an '89 for some reason?).
Do make SURE you get a quality PPI from a knowledgable dealer/third party. Can't stress this enough!!! These cars are well made and long lasting but do have a few weak spots. Head studs come to mind (especially the bottom exhaust ones) and potential valve guide wear (again, especially the exhaust valve - so much more heat). Don't forget the 915 transmission and its syncro issues!
Get books BEFORE you buy. READ all you can. Peter Zimmerman's book "The Used 911 Story" is an excellent start but don't stop there if an air cooled 911 is in your sights. Bruce Anderson, Wayne Dempsey, Peter Morgan, Bently Publishers and Haynes all have books that can provide you with a 911 education "par-excellance"! Get some of the free parts catalogs (Vertex, Perfomance, etc.) to get a feel for prices for, say, CV joints & door window wiper strips to name just a few of the MANY parts you'll get to know!
Unlike a PPI (which is essentail on a serious prospect), if the car you're looking at doesn't work out - you STILL have the books and knowledge base inhouse. They'll also become invaluable companions once you do get that 911.
Above all, take you're time, leave your emotions AT HOME, and do your research. There are cars out there that will give you the worst Porsche experience you can imagine and plenty of folks willing to sell them to you. Arm yourself with knowledge and, when it looks serious, get thee to a PPI!
Good luck!
Barry
I have the same year coupe and have been extremely pleased with it for two reasons:
1) I spent around $200.00 bucks on books, magazines, service manuals and the like to do decent research on what I wanted to buy (an '84-'89 Carrera 3.2L Coupe) and,
2) Spent $250.00 on a PPI for the car I focused in on and eventually bought.
If you're not sold on the 3.2L series then keep doing general researching. If you've tuned into these cars then by all means don't be afraid to spend some bucks on detailed research as to the nature of these cars. They're one of the most mass produced 911's ever made (a plus since many factory and after-market parts are available for the cars), one of the most well sorted out (few caveots) and also one of the most documented from a third party standpoint (read - Manuals & info readily available to beat the band).
There's a statement out there that essentially says that NO Porsche is less than a $20,000.00 car and my experience has shown that to be very true! If you don't spend it on the initial purchase you'll spend it on maintenance pretty quick.
Don't put too much stock in KBB/edmonds/NADA prices. They're not indicative of the 'real' price these cars go for - they're too low for good examples. They're like the coverage you'll get from a standard insurance company (State Farm, Allstate, etc.) - no where near what a good example is really worth - and what you'll eventually put into it.
A 15 to 20 year old car needs things and these things are not cheap to source. If you can't do alot of your own maintenance that may heavily impact your ability to bring the car up to snuff & maintain it. Your mileage may vary depending on your discretionary income.
Bruce Anderson's value article for 2004 in Excellence magazine pegs the 3.2L Carrera Coupe from a low around $13,700.00 for a poor '84 model to a high of around $24,600 for an excellent '89. The 1986 seems to rate from around $16,900 for poor to $25,800 for excellent (yes, better than an '89 for some reason?).
Do make SURE you get a quality PPI from a knowledgable dealer/third party. Can't stress this enough!!! These cars are well made and long lasting but do have a few weak spots. Head studs come to mind (especially the bottom exhaust ones) and potential valve guide wear (again, especially the exhaust valve - so much more heat). Don't forget the 915 transmission and its syncro issues!
Get books BEFORE you buy. READ all you can. Peter Zimmerman's book "The Used 911 Story" is an excellent start but don't stop there if an air cooled 911 is in your sights. Bruce Anderson, Wayne Dempsey, Peter Morgan, Bently Publishers and Haynes all have books that can provide you with a 911 education "par-excellance"! Get some of the free parts catalogs (Vertex, Perfomance, etc.) to get a feel for prices for, say, CV joints & door window wiper strips to name just a few of the MANY parts you'll get to know!
Unlike a PPI (which is essentail on a serious prospect), if the car you're looking at doesn't work out - you STILL have the books and knowledge base inhouse. They'll also become invaluable companions once you do get that 911.
Above all, take you're time, leave your emotions AT HOME, and do your research. There are cars out there that will give you the worst Porsche experience you can imagine and plenty of folks willing to sell them to you. Arm yourself with knowledge and, when it looks serious, get thee to a PPI!
Good luck!
Barry
11-06-2005, 10:14 PM
#6
Instructor
Slotcar,
Oh, and my car had 170,000 miles at purchase and after 3 years still runs VERY reliably and like a bat-out-of-hell at approx. 230,000 miles. No engine rebuild (bottom or top) and its never left me stranded. I get around 900 miles per quart of oil added but I have a small return tube leak that may account for about a fouth of that. Driven hard and loves it! Hits 6000 RPM at least once everytime I drive it (almost daily). Saw 130 MPH on the speedo about six months ago (after subtracting the 10% over read - Damn, got to get that VDO to North Hollywood soon...)!
Barry
Oh, and my car had 170,000 miles at purchase and after 3 years still runs VERY reliably and like a bat-out-of-hell at approx. 230,000 miles. No engine rebuild (bottom or top) and its never left me stranded. I get around 900 miles per quart of oil added but I have a small return tube leak that may account for about a fouth of that. Driven hard and loves it! Hits 6000 RPM at least once everytime I drive it (almost daily). Saw 130 MPH on the speedo about six months ago (after subtracting the 10% over read - Damn, got to get that VDO to North Hollywood soon...)!
Barry
11-08-2005, 07:45 PM
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Barry, thanks for the excellent information! I ended up purchasing the 86' Carerra Coupe, and I'm still grinning ear to ear. I had a PPI performed by the local Porsche Dealer, and was fortunate to have a Master Mechanic with over 25 years experience perform the inspection. He said the car looked better than some of the 3yr old cars he has seen. I wanted a car that I could tinker with , and perform some of the maintenance on my own. I've already purchased the 101 Projects by Wayne Dempsey...looking forward to the oil-change this weekend, then a valve adjustment.
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11-08-2005, 09:43 PM
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Slotcar, what did you end up paying for the car? You asked for the fair market value, now tell, if you would, what your "fair market value " was.... Thanks. By the way , I just bought a 100K mile 85 coupe for $16,300 for comparison... 
11-10-2005, 10:39 PM
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Slotcar,
GREAT to hear you found your 'Beast' - just remember to use your new found power for GOOD not EVIL!
Not knowing your expertise level with these cars I'd advise taking on the easier maintenance items first. A valve adjustment is a pretty precise issue. It's like watching Bob Villa (sp?) build a garage in 30 minutes. In real life it can turn out more like a Tim Taylor on 'Tool Time' experience!!!!
I also have the '101 Projects For Your Porsche 911' book and highly recommend Waynes work (Wayne - what's up with the 101 for BMW 3 series? I need to get that for my son - prod, prod, prod ;-)) but do tread carefully on the more critical issues (such as a valve adjustment). The book is NOT a step by step guide for the inexperienced - nor is it meant to be.
One suggestion I have is to join the Porsche Club of America (PCA) if you have an active region in your area (don't know where you are). You'll have a good shot at finding one or more folks close to you that really get into the mechanical side of the cars and who are willing to lend seasoned advice if you get in a jam.
Don't expect them to come and fix your car when it won't run (I've actually seen this expected :-0) but don't be overly surprised if you make a friend or five who REALLY know their stuff and can get you out of most of the fixes it's so easy to get into to (ask me how I know ;-)).
As always, Rennlist's and Pelican's sites are first stops for questions on issues.
Good luck on you car and I hope you enjoy the P-Car Experience!
Barry
GREAT to hear you found your 'Beast' - just remember to use your new found power for GOOD not EVIL!
Not knowing your expertise level with these cars I'd advise taking on the easier maintenance items first. A valve adjustment is a pretty precise issue. It's like watching Bob Villa (sp?) build a garage in 30 minutes. In real life it can turn out more like a Tim Taylor on 'Tool Time' experience!!!!
I also have the '101 Projects For Your Porsche 911' book and highly recommend Waynes work (Wayne - what's up with the 101 for BMW 3 series? I need to get that for my son - prod, prod, prod ;-)) but do tread carefully on the more critical issues (such as a valve adjustment). The book is NOT a step by step guide for the inexperienced - nor is it meant to be.
One suggestion I have is to join the Porsche Club of America (PCA) if you have an active region in your area (don't know where you are). You'll have a good shot at finding one or more folks close to you that really get into the mechanical side of the cars and who are willing to lend seasoned advice if you get in a jam.
Don't expect them to come and fix your car when it won't run (I've actually seen this expected :-0) but don't be overly surprised if you make a friend or five who REALLY know their stuff and can get you out of most of the fixes it's so easy to get into to (ask me how I know ;-)).
As always, Rennlist's and Pelican's sites are first stops for questions on issues.
Good luck on you car and I hope you enjoy the P-Car Experience!
Barry
11-15-2005, 09:38 PM
#10
Instructor
Slotcar,
Posting your PM here as it may have general relevance. I made some book suggestions that may or may not require me to put my 'steel pot' on and hunker down! ;-)
Here is my list of non-factory books by author & publisher that I'll present (IMHO) in order of importance to YOU since you've already purchased your car (read - specific maintenance info reigns over general research info):
Porsche 911 Service Manual '84-'89 - Bentley
Porsche 911 '65-'89 Automotive Repair Manual - Haynes
101 Projects for your Porsche 911 - Dempsey/MBI
Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management - Probst/Bentley
Restoration Manual Porsche 911 - Porter & Morgan/Haynes
How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines - Dempsey/MBI
The Used Porsche 911 Story - Zimmermann
Porsche 911 Story - Frere/Haynes
Porsche 911 Buyer's Guide - Leffingwell/MBI
Original Porsche 911 - Morgan/MBI
Serveral books have errors but otherwise include info that may not be present in other books. With this many you can expect mucho overlap in some areas but the different perspectives can be helpful.
As far as the e-brake goes they do not self adjust at the drum as some do (while backing up and applying the breaks) so a manual op is required every now & then. There's a star wheel w/access hole in the drum that you use to move the shoes to the lock up point & then back off until the disk/drum can rotate freely.
In normal use the shoes rarely wear out (@220,000m mine were fine & were original - I'm blessed to have all records since new - just luck!) and the cable adjustment is usually not the problem. Adjust the shoes first and then see if the cable needs adjusting due to uneven application or too long a handle throw (say, over 4 clicks).
The Bentley service manual is the biggest bang for the bucks and includes almost all of what the home mech. needs to know including your brake issue.
Hope this helps. Good Luck!
Barry
Posting your PM here as it may have general relevance. I made some book suggestions that may or may not require me to put my 'steel pot' on and hunker down! ;-)
Originally Posted by Slotcar
Barry, thanks for all of info. Any other manuals that you could recommend on the 86 911's. I want to get my hands dirty, and could use a good manual on the braking system(s). My e-brake is working properly...I think it needs an adjustment, or I'll need to rebuild the drum. I will join the PCA...sounds like a good group and (the parts/service discounts seem nice). Thanks again...
Porsche 911 Service Manual '84-'89 - Bentley
Porsche 911 '65-'89 Automotive Repair Manual - Haynes
101 Projects for your Porsche 911 - Dempsey/MBI
Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management - Probst/Bentley
Restoration Manual Porsche 911 - Porter & Morgan/Haynes
How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines - Dempsey/MBI
The Used Porsche 911 Story - Zimmermann
Porsche 911 Story - Frere/Haynes
Porsche 911 Buyer's Guide - Leffingwell/MBI
Original Porsche 911 - Morgan/MBI
Serveral books have errors but otherwise include info that may not be present in other books. With this many you can expect mucho overlap in some areas but the different perspectives can be helpful.
As far as the e-brake goes they do not self adjust at the drum as some do (while backing up and applying the breaks) so a manual op is required every now & then. There's a star wheel w/access hole in the drum that you use to move the shoes to the lock up point & then back off until the disk/drum can rotate freely.
In normal use the shoes rarely wear out (@220,000m mine were fine & were original - I'm blessed to have all records since new - just luck!) and the cable adjustment is usually not the problem. Adjust the shoes first and then see if the cable needs adjusting due to uneven application or too long a handle throw (say, over 4 clicks).
The Bentley service manual is the biggest bang for the bucks and includes almost all of what the home mech. needs to know including your brake issue.
Hope this helps. Good Luck!
Barry
11-15-2005, 10:08 PM
#11
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Barry, fine list, I would add...
Porsche Performance Handbook - Bruce Anderson
Excellence Was Expected - Karl Ludvigsen
Porsche High-Performance Driving Handbook - Vic Elford
'74-89 911 Authenticity Series - Mark Haab
{dont overlook the Factory's own material:
Parts & Technical Reference Catalog (911 '74-89)
the CD: Genuine Parts Catalog (in pdf)}
btw, on driving in general Frere's Sports Car & Competition Driving is a classic.
Porsche Performance Handbook - Bruce Anderson
Excellence Was Expected - Karl Ludvigsen
Porsche High-Performance Driving Handbook - Vic Elford
'74-89 911 Authenticity Series - Mark Haab
{dont overlook the Factory's own material:
Parts & Technical Reference Catalog (911 '74-89)
the CD: Genuine Parts Catalog (in pdf)}
btw, on driving in general Frere's Sports Car & Competition Driving is a classic.
11-17-2005, 04:59 PM
#12
Instructor
ked,
Yes - (blush) you are so right! I have all but the factory manuals, Mark Haabs work, the Parts & Tech. Ref. Cat. (Porsche still shows it available but I've had one on order since 2003!) and the CD (which I'm busting my ***** to get - even with the correct part number! What's up with that?).
I'm really embarassed about leaving out Bruce Anderson's book because THAT was my FIRST purchase and what I carried around when checking out possible cars! Great history & info on engine design.
I can indeed vouch for those! I'd also like to get the little 'Specifications' booklet that Porsche produces. I have one for my wife's '88 944NA and it's packed with good stuff (like torque values & the like).
Frere's & Elford's driving books were required reading for my son before we turned him loose - especially Elford's recollection of a near 'rear-ender' in traffic and Frere's statement on the losing proposition of 'street racing'!
Good books all!
Barry
Yes - (blush) you are so right! I have all but the factory manuals, Mark Haabs work, the Parts & Tech. Ref. Cat. (Porsche still shows it available but I've had one on order since 2003!) and the CD (which I'm busting my ***** to get - even with the correct part number! What's up with that?).
I'm really embarassed about leaving out Bruce Anderson's book because THAT was my FIRST purchase and what I carried around when checking out possible cars! Great history & info on engine design.
I can indeed vouch for those! I'd also like to get the little 'Specifications' booklet that Porsche produces. I have one for my wife's '88 944NA and it's packed with good stuff (like torque values & the like).
Frere's & Elford's driving books were required reading for my son before we turned him loose - especially Elford's recollection of a near 'rear-ender' in traffic and Frere's statement on the losing proposition of 'street racing'!
Good books all!
Barry
11-17-2005, 05:20 PM
#13
Instructor
ked,
Oh - and I can't forget my most recent purchase! The complete 'Up-Fixin Der Porsche' series from PCA. It's pretty jumbled up (there is an index of sorts...) but, like panning for gold, a thorough reading will produce many, many nuggets! Since I also keep a 944 happy, all that extra reading is even more rewarding!
Barry
Oh - and I can't forget my most recent purchase! The complete 'Up-Fixin Der Porsche' series from PCA. It's pretty jumbled up (there is an index of sorts...) but, like panning for gold, a thorough reading will produce many, many nuggets! Since I also keep a 944 happy, all that extra reading is even more rewarding!
Barry
11-17-2005, 05:48 PM
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Barry - Kudos to you. This is a very thoughful, informative and helpful reply on Slotcar's post. 
Now this is what Rennlist is all about ! Two Cheers For Barry !
Now this is what Rennlist is all about ! Two Cheers For Barry !
11-17-2005, 06:26 PM
#15
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Barry,
Yeah, we often overlook the things we have internalized the most. Look for that CD on ebay (ok everybody, don't go nuts & drive the price up - be patient - they're out there & will keep coming...).
I forgot the little spec handbook, great companion to the Manual in the glovebox. Has data printed nowhere else & settles lotsa bets among all us opinionated, self-appointed "experts" (aka amateurs). If one ever breaks down in the middle of nowhere, pulling that out to review w/ a mechanic, the look on his face will tell you if he's a pro or not.
I wasn't going to mention Up-Fixn' - didn't want to start another land rush. Got my set last week. Wow - it is like a trip through time on the PCA express. Incredible variety, knowledge, history, entertainment. A ton of useful general automotive systems info, too. I hope PCA puts it all on a DVD eventually, but holding the paper is part of "being there" in the '50s - '70s. Owning Porsches from '59 to '87, they are a necessity as well as a treat. I can't believe I'm wrapped up in the details of Porsche's incursion into the US tractor market.
OT: on street driving... Driving Techniques /Anthony Scotti - I enjoyed this readable, practical text focused on real world issues for any driver on the public roads. His school is aimed at Highway Patrol / Exec Protection drivers. {Reminds us that well-trained police ARE skilled, professional drivers, too.} He cites Taruffi's "Technique of Motor Racing" - another classic.
cheers!
Yeah, we often overlook the things we have internalized the most. Look for that CD on ebay (ok everybody, don't go nuts & drive the price up - be patient - they're out there & will keep coming...).
I forgot the little spec handbook, great companion to the Manual in the glovebox. Has data printed nowhere else & settles lotsa bets among all us opinionated, self-appointed "experts" (aka amateurs). If one ever breaks down in the middle of nowhere, pulling that out to review w/ a mechanic, the look on his face will tell you if he's a pro or not.
I wasn't going to mention Up-Fixn' - didn't want to start another land rush. Got my set last week. Wow - it is like a trip through time on the PCA express. Incredible variety, knowledge, history, entertainment. A ton of useful general automotive systems info, too. I hope PCA puts it all on a DVD eventually, but holding the paper is part of "being there" in the '50s - '70s. Owning Porsches from '59 to '87, they are a necessity as well as a treat. I can't believe I'm wrapped up in the details of Porsche's incursion into the US tractor market.
OT: on street driving... Driving Techniques /Anthony Scotti - I enjoyed this readable, practical text focused on real world issues for any driver on the public roads. His school is aimed at Highway Patrol / Exec Protection drivers. {Reminds us that well-trained police ARE skilled, professional drivers, too.} He cites Taruffi's "Technique of Motor Racing" - another classic.
cheers!
