epbrown01

The magazine in Morty's avatar is the Septermber 2004 issue of 911 & Porsche World.

Emanuel

purrybonker

Hate to be a nay-sayer guys - but I will not be joining you on the G-50 club sport band wagon. The relative rarity of this car is for good reason - they made (and make) no sense. The club sport was basically just a strip down Carrera - (and not a magic or complex strip job - just an elimination of goodies) that sold for a premium price to the base version. These cars were just the ill-conceived dream of some marketing genius.

Why would anyone pay a premium dollar for less car?

Buy a regular Carrera - (sans sunroof if you must) strip out the AC and power goodies and you have a clubsport. That stuff about the "blueprinted" engine with a different DME chip is pretty much bunkum too, afaic. I've seen one of those rare clubsports on a dyno beside regular Carreras - HP and torque curves looked just like normal 3.2 fare to me. I've not seen Porsche literature that speaks to enhanced output values for the clubsport engine.

Clubsports have intrinsic value due to there uniqueness - not for any pragmatic reason. I doubt it makes sense to rationalize the purchase of one for technical/performance reasons. I also doubt that they will ever carry any value cache over a regular Carrera.

WJV

purrybonker,

Have you ever driven a CS? If not, I would encourage you to do so before making all of your assertions. I can tell you first hand there is a significant difference in the driving experience between a CS and regular Carrera. Personally, I relish the fact that Porsche built this car without all of the "unnecessary" electrical gizmos burdening their regular production cars at the time. Having a background in the early 911's, items such as AC and heavy electrical items such as windows, locks, seats, heating, etc. only mask the Porsche driving experience for me. Is it for everyone? No. But that's just fine with me. I just don't understand why some individuals maintain such a negative outlook on Club Sports, especially those without personal experience behind the wheel.

Stripped down Carrera -- It would not be that easy to "strip" a Carrera while maintaining a stock, presentable appearance and reduce its weight to the CS level of 2,550 lbs. Do you know what's involved in removing the undercoating on a car? Not a fun process.

No power advantage -- I will invite a U.S. CS owner to share his dyno results with you which clearly demonstrate an increased hp level. In addition to being blueprinted at Porsche's Werks department, hollow intake valves were added in connection with the increased rev range of the different DME chip.

Could someone try to duplicate the weight savings/features of the CS? Sure. Would they have a factory, unmodified limited production car after that? No. Just as there have been many, many replicas of the '73 RS (some done exceptionally I might add), none of them equate a factory original '73 RS.

To each his own -- Personally, I love having a special, very limited production car with the specific gratifying qualities of the CS and knowing that I will not come across another one in my excursions through the canyons.

purrybonker

Now, that statement I can understand and get behind 100%. Don't get me wrong - I'm not attacking the CS - it is a 911 Carrera, after all. The CS was/is a niche vehicle (very tiny niche, apparently) even within the small niche that was/is the 911 market. Personally, I would rather have the creature comforts of the Carrera - but then, I'm not looking for a dedicated track car. Each to their own, as you say...

TomTurtle

Joe P:

Where did you see the CS? Do you have any contact info on the owner? I am one of the guys from the US CS owners group and we're always looking for more owners of the little known but still much-loved CS; so far we have identified all but six of the 28 '88-'89 owners in the US but I am not aware of any Arizona owners. We also have a PCA Register (listed in each edition of Panorama) for the CS. FYI, there is also a nice article on the CS in the January edition of European Car.

My email is tom_trudell@hotmail.com if you have any info on the owner or if you can point me in the right direction to locate him.

BTW, Morty, contact me if you or the prospective buyer of your RoW 87 CS want to join our CS Register.

Tom

9caregiver

I love my CS and would not give it up. http://www.Porsport.com/images/2005_...248_Resize.jpg It is as Pure a 911 as there is, very close to my 73 RS.

Best,

Don

William S

These sound like wonderful cars. I'm wondering what the Club Sports sell for these days?

TomTurtle

Good question William, there are so few around and they don't change hands very often. Just a wild guess on my part, but I think the current market value for a low mileage (i.e. under 50k miles) US CS in good condition would be somewhere between US$50-55K and in excellent condition US$55-60K. Other CS owners can chip in if they like (and I hope they do). Like any collector car, the main emphasis is on low mileage; the lower the mileage the higher the cost.

The prices I have seen for similar "RoW" (i.e. UK) CS's are about US$5-10K higher; there are twice as many (about 53) RHD CS's in the UK but they are all the classic GP White with the CS logo on the side vice fender.

2002M3Drew

Morty,

Sorry for the misstaements in my earlier post...you would know since you have one! I do remember seeing a pretty plan black door panel with a loop attatched to pull it closed...that wasn't on the US Club Sports? I must be confusing it witrh something else.

I wanted to point out, especially in light of some of the other opinions about the CS being an overpriced stripper Carrera (which is also how the press basically painted the picture back in the day), there was another car that had a very similar story: The 1995 BMW M3 Lightweight. This was also a car that was mechanically more or less identical to the regular version, albeit with no sunroof, manual seats, revised suspension settings, a spoiler kit (shipped in the trunk), a decal kit (the Motorsports "flag" pattern), special forged wheels, LSD, and I believe, no radio or AC (I may be wrong on those details...hope Monty doesn't have one of these, too! ) The point is, the M3 LTW was pretty much everything that the CS was to the Carrera; it also cost more, was also crucified by the media (including BMWCCA's Roundel), and it sat in showrooms troughout the country. They couldn't give these things away. It did not have any real measurable gains over the standard car, though the "feel" was definitely different.

The comparison continues ten years later, where an M3 LTW is one of the most desirable modern BMWs you can get your hands on. They are rare, and racers search all over for them. Own one, and name your price when it comes time to sell.

William S

Thank you Tom.

TomTurtle

FWIW, a San Diego CS owner and I are trying to get all five California CS's (four '88's and one "89) to attend the Fontana PCA Zone 8 SpeedFestival in March 2005. See the site at: http://www.pcasdr.org/club/index.html
Maybe we will see some of you local guys there and take you for a spin!

Chris Bennet

I think the reason these cars weren't that popular in the US at the time is that they were essentially option delete ("stripper") cars that Porsche had the gall to charge full price for. As for "blue printing", I've weighed and measured a few Porsche motors and from what I've seen the factory holds pretty close tolerances already.
If Porsche had priced them like the 356 Speedster or the RS America they might have been more popular. I may be being unfair to Porsche, perhaps the low volume of this car made them expensive to produce but seen objectively, they were a poor value. This is not to say that they aren't great enthusiast cars.

Here are some differences that I remember:
- hollow intake valves
- rev limit raised (2 bytes changed in DME), everything else unchanged
- sport shocks
- clock delete
- sticker instead of hood badge

-Chris

GrantG

Chris - I agree. The RS America was $10k cheaper than a C2 and came w/o power steering and some other heavy luxury items. If the CS had been $5k cheaper than a Carrera3.2, then it might've been a real success story in terms of sales. They are certainly better to drive than a regular 3.2 for those that want a sportier ride. True, they wouldn't be worth quite the premium they are today, but an RSA is worth $10k more than a C2 of the same year, despite the fact that they were originally cheaper...

mamoroso

I actually agree with Purry on this one. The only reason why they should be priced higher than a normal Carrera is for their collector value.
It is not really that difficult to strip down any Carrera to that level. And I think now it can be done more effectively. For example you can throw in a pair of Recaro PPs, set of RS america door panels, get rid of the back seats, swap your stock battery for an Optima and you are already close to the 2,550lbs level. Throw in a Steve Wong chip, Bilstein Sports and upgraded T-bars and you have a car that drives similar to the CS.
To some people the fact that it came that way from Stuttgard makes it more valuable. As WJV said.. to each his own.

9caregiver

I do not think you guys realise by your posts all of the differences, which were maybe more extensive than you think. If you owned one and drove one you may have a better understanding as to what they really are. Porsche charged the same ammount of money as the standard car back then which seems fair to me for a special model. People in general want comfort which would explain why there were not many made. Of 1580 73 Carrera RSs all but 200 had the Touring option. The small ammount left in Lightweight form. Nearly half of the CSs came from a single dealer. Maybe most buying back then knew little of Porsche's offering.

Of course you can build or convert anything into anything. There are plenty of Cobras running around and fake Rolexs too. They are just not the real deal. What these cars are worth today really does not matter much to me.

Don