Pete,
You've been a super help today. Thanks whether I end up with this car or another.

I wonder if we on Rennlist know how exceptional it is that a published authority on our cars is still so involved as to offer the kind of advice (and repetitive too- sorry) you've given out for free. Kudos for your continued involvement in the hobby and for being a nice guy. I'll post what happens later.

I'm considering what to do and still thinking over the 120,000 miles.

 

And If you do a PPI on the car - make sure it is by someone who knows 964's - the PPI on my car (the 964) missed the most expensive issue - the cylinder head issue - but correctly diagnosed the three other issues (about $800 to fix).

 

Well, here's where I was coming from. I had a budget of about $20k, and wanted as new of a 911 as I could afford, before I started really doing some research. I'm a first-timer too, so a) I had to avoid getting emotionally charged up, and b) I didn't have a good solid background in the 911, so I needed to check things out first.

964 was my choice in style & "newness". I knew if I bought a coupe I was going to track it, period. I didn't really know if I wanted to go that way, as this was intended to be a summertime fun street car that I could enjoy just for me. So, I started looking at the Cabs. I'd been told that Targas leaked more & were noisier, and honestly (this is just an opinion, no offense to anyone), I really don't care for the Targa look.

The 964's power was nice, but it being a C4 AND a Cab, it was considerably heavier than the "older" Carrera. I'd also heard about the infamous early 4WD "push", the hydraulic clutch bleeding costs and the head gaskets (or lack thereof). The updated trans' shifter I found VERY funky (4 forward positions, 2 rear, with R being over left & up) over the '84. I found myself fumbling trying to find 2nd vs it wanting to kick over to 4th on a 1-2 shift (almost like a skip-shift). I DID like the power seats, but the controls on the side were difficult to access. The power top was very nice, but I'd also heard about those failing too.

If I were driving the car all year, I'd probably have rather had the C4, since I'm in a snow belt (some falling outside now, put the '84 away last night).

The 84's lighter, is still a Motronic (chip-able), and I found the power to weight difference not so noticeable. The '84's more raw & direct driver to car bond, IMO. The one I got had the Weltmeister short shifter & Chip, I knew the PO, had complete records, and the car is extremely sharp. The manual top is all of about 3 minutes to drop or put back up. Even though it's an older torsion-bar setup, it handles very nicely. I brought a friend of mine to see a car from eBay on Sunday morning (#4509660291). He drove the '02 C4S, and mentioned he didn't feel it was any better handling than my '84 I drove him down in, though he liked the power better, and he said it "felt bigger inside" than mine.

I think there are pros & cons to all of the 911 eras. Unlike some, I like the look of the 993's, don't mind the 996's even though they seem "cushier" (I'm used to seeing them on the track though), and the older 911's are Borg-like - it takes man & machine in harmony to get the job done right, and neither one is allowed to forget it. The more safety & technology get involved, the more stuff can fail, the heavier the cars, etc.

I tell people my '84 gives me the feeling of flying a P-51 Mustang - open sky, guns-only. The 964 would be more like an F-4 Phantom, still exciting, but different - bigger, faster, more technology-driven, and a Sidewinder only.

I'm happy with the '84. I DO wish there was a cupholder & on some days about 30 more ponies though...

Newbie notes from the field.

 

Now this is a deal...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...80#post1647580

 

wholesale clean is 16700, retail with all noticable problems taken care of from a dealer is 20k, loan value 12500. The dealer likely has 16k or less in the car. If he bought at auction 15 would have been a good sell for wholesaler. If you're smitten and the PPI isn't too big a hit in the wallet, you could probably buy for 17500. Make an offer and be prepared to walk.

 

DAN: Thank you for the nice words. Remember, NO EMOTION! If you buy the car do so on fact, research & a PPI. If it turns out that it's necessary, going in knowing that you will have to reseal the engine + p/cyls + head work might be better for you in the long run (if you can buy the car at a satisfactory price). At least you will be able to pick the shop that you want to use to do your all-important heavy work... Good luck!
Pete

 

Pete, Yes, I agree NO EMOTION and also, No thinking with your "Nads"! :>)

Quite frankly, that's usually my problem.

I have decided to forego this particular car, though it strongly appeals to me viscerally. As I said on the 964 board, my time will come and I will be much better off for having waited and making a more well considered, well thoughtout decision. Thanks again to you Pete, and to everyone for their patience and thoughtful participation in the discussion. Regards, Dan

 

Just a quick note on Andial, I've had my cars serviced there and they are a very competent shop. They are in Santa Ana located just across the lot from Porsche Racing North America. That would be the place I'd go for my PPI.

On the 964, 120K miles is a lot but there are cars around with many more miles on them than that!

All model years have "issues", here is what I've heard on the 964;

1. Dual Distributor drive belt failure.
2. Burned exhaust valve guides.

I believe these are the last of the torsion bar cars, built when Porsche was really building them mostly by hand and one at a time. In the early 90's the 911 was probably at its most expensive relative to average income. As I remember the 964 was first introduced as a C4 with an innovative and expensive electrically controlled all wheel drive system. The C2 wasn't introduced until the better part of a year later. The 964 years were the nadir of total Porsche sales in North America. The dollar was also unfavorable to the Mark in those days. As a chassis type the 964 cars are really relatively rare.

Good luck to you and remember that there are lot's out there to choose from and plenty of people willing to help you!

 

Just to clarify Garey's post a bit (since a lot of people read these boards), the 964 was the first 911 to use coil over suspension. The torsion bar suspension ended (on 911 road cars) with the 1989 3.2 Carrera. I do agree with Garey that the 964 model line was really a well screwed together 911 and they were pricey when new...