Doug&Julie

I just got my 911 & Porsche World magazine in the mail yesterday and a reader wrote in wondering if it's easier to a) backdate an '80s Carrera to a long-nose look (bodywork) or b) update the mechanicals of an early long-nose to match those of an '80s Carrera. The author seemed pretty adamant that backdating bodywork is easier than updating mechanicals. But I thought it was pretty easy to plug in just about any motor pre 3.2 into early cars? What do you guys think? This was the plan with my '72 T (to update mechanicals to 3.2 Carrera) but now I'm re-thinking my project...

Since either way is technically bastardizing an original car, which do you think is the more "purist" way to go? (..not that this will sway my opinion...just curious..)

g-50cab

You know - I have been contemplating this for awhile now - after the article in excellence last month and some of the rust issues that I have see from some of the early cars I have seen - that's the route that I plan on going, especially with the cost of Carreras coming down.

What do most people do anyway with the early cars? update the brakes to Carrera brakes (at least), later 915 - You already have the 3.2 - which if you pull the AC, power seats, etc. Too me it would be much less expensive to delete things on the carrera. You should be able to get the weight down close to an early car - specially if you throw some fiberglass into the mix...

JCP911S

Having gone thorugh the misery of an engine swap, I would guess the cost of each is roughly equal... by that I mean twice what you budgeted (call it $10K). But some considerations.

If the early donor car is pristine, I have a problem "butchering" it from both a financial an purist POV. If not, you have $10K of body work on top of the swap cost.!!!!!

A shabby paint SC donor with solid mechanicals can be had for the price of a decent 911T... say $8-10K. Put $10K into the body conversion, and at least you have a solid running car with beautiful new paint that is probably worth $15K as a hot rod. A pristine 911 T with an engine swap may or may not be worth more than $10K, since its investment value has been ruined.

Of course 10 years from now everybody will bitch at all the SCs that have been butchered....

Doing a retro-look interior in an SC is also not that big a deal. If you want small bumper look with big engine performance and day to day reliability, my vote is that a retro body conversion is really worth considering.

Doug&Julie

I'm really thinking of leaning toward this direction. (Which means my '72 T project will be up for sale before too long...ahem...) I've really loved having my two Carreras, the 3.2 is a terrific motor for my needs (still a little raw, but very livable) but I love the early look. Plus, as much as I want to be a purist and have a "no compromise car", the reality is if it's too bare bones, I won't drive it much. I could see lightening a mid-late '80s car with early style bumpers in fiberglass, maybe a ducktail, RS style carpets, early seats...but still remaining quite livable. If not for "day to day", then for sure on "most days".

Thanks for your thoughts!

epbrown01

I'd go with the retro look as well. An engine swap into the lighter, more "raw" cars is gratifying, but you're still left with that rust-prone chassis and the suspension/brake upgrades. Besides I've yet to see an early car engine swap that didn't include bodywork as well - Carrera or RS flares, paint, tails, bumpers. I'd rather start with an SC or Carrera and mod the body and lighten it...

Emanuel

Doug&Julie

Good points on the rust. That's the biggest problem with my '72 right now. It's not terrible, but something that MUST be fixed before I do anything else. And since I want to do it right, I'm going to be out a bit of cash before even considering the mechanicals...ugh.

JCP911S

You do fiberglass fenders, bumpers, lightweight seats, maybe an RS carpet set, SSIs, (ditch the A/C... when its hot, drive the Boxster) and a few other things, you can knock a painless 200+lbs off the car. That will really improve the performance. Start with an SC and you may end up around 2,400-2,500 lbs... not far off an early car in weight.

I'm liking the concept more and more

Doug&Julie

Me too!

...now, who wants a slightly rusty '72 911 T???

r911

In Ohio I might well start with a fully galvanized car and backdate it.

In a non-salt area, I would start with an early car. I am dubious about the 2,400 lb. figure above - it seems to just be a seat of the pants guess. Also, an early car be further lightened -- down to 1,700 lbs or perhaps even less.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Great thread,....

This whole thing is truly subjective in nature but I'd add that its not cheap to backdate a 74-89 car. We just made a 73 RSR replica from an 84 Turbolook coupe. As they say, the "devil is is is in the details" and this is not inexpensive to do.

One last thing,....ALL of these cars can be lightened up and I've seen just as many sub-2000 lb 69-73 cars as 2000-2100 lb 74-89 cars. Under 2000 lb weights take LARGE amounts of $$$$. For the record, the '74 and later chassis is a bit stiffer in critical places and will handle better, all things being equal. Other factors are oiling systems and whether one wants a wide-body or not.

P.S.......

Randy,.....my '74 Carrera with a fully prepared suspension and Turbo brakes weighs 2300 lbs wet and it still has power windows so I know these cars can also be made very light with some $$$ infusion.

r911

Steve, I was just thinking about what one would do to really make a light wt. 911 (tho I should have been thinking aobut something work). Both Jim Calzia's car and Grant's "Carbon Copy" car are close to 1,700 as I recall. But they got there by somewhat different routes. So combining those techniques could get you into the 1,600's somewhere.

Someone who was really crazy would go thru all the gears, cams, oil pump etc. and start making the centers of the gears out of Ti (or maybe ceramic) with the teeth as a steel alloy. Like one sees on racing bicycles.

The ultimate would be to make a hollow strut like the wing bone of a bird - 165 million years of evolution _can_ be wrong, but is likely to be pretty far along the function spectrum.

A guy in NY (who makes carbon items for Porsche) told me to think it terms of different race classes and the $$/lb. they will pay to remove wt. Some serious items are in the $1,000/lb range for the higher classes. Pushing the technology out to a new level would cost more still.

2,300 lbs. with power windows is good -- are they undercoated too?

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Randy:

LOL,...those last 100 lbs will cost you dearly. Its going to be a Ti & CF story. Robert Linton (in NY) on the 993 Forum has built a VERY exotic totally CF 964 that cost well over $ 250K.

The hollow strut principle is precisely what Mr. Linton did as his company builds many exotic parts for F1 teams, Porsche A.G.and other pro racers. Do a search to see pics of many gorgeous CF and Ti parts on his car.

As you already know, speed, power, and real light weight is not cheap and performance always equals $$$$$. The real trick is knowing where and when its prudent and wise to save weight.

My car has its factory undercoating and a full interior.

r911

It's more of a thought experiment for me - I call my car a car of moderation.... no ttoo much hp, not too light wt. (will still have a stereo). Part of my interest is that I'm a scientsit who studies birds. BTW - the bones are just hollow -- they have thin internal butresses that align with the force vectors. Also, they can use them to help with breathing. Pretty amazing stuff.

A '74 with a full interior and undercoating at 2,300 wet is also pretty amazing. Some day I'll get up to Portland and maybe see it.

Now what was this thread about - oh yeh... which way to go. I think it depends on the salt to performance ratio. Since I used to live in Cleveburg and once watched a buddy's BMW fall _thru_ the jack stands we had it on, I am inclined to backdate a later car. I suspect the welding on of the front clip would be the critical part. The Carreras will have all the nice suspension/brake goodies already but are quite heavy so you'd have to toss out a lot of creature comforts.

JackOlsen

To the original question, I think there are a few key factors that aren't the same in every case. In California, pre-1975 tubs are smog exempt, which is a big plus. They also tend to have far less rust than in other parts of the country.

But if you're looking to have, say, all Carrera components except the exterior bodywork, then backdating a Carrera is probably the way to go. But if you want to pick and choose -- say a 3.2 motor, with Turbo brakes, and an early interior, and a more-than-Carrera suspension -- then the simplicity of the backdating route starts to evaporate.

If your wish list has a lot of variety on it, and absolute low weight is your goal, then a 69 tub is the lightest (of the LWB 911's).

In my case, my car ended up being heavier than stock, in spite of all fiberglass body panels (except the roof) aluminum trailing arms and front crossmember, race seats, lightweight battery, RSA door panels, lightweight carpet and the elimination of the rear seats, sound deadening and most of the torsion tube anchor. All of that, and I'm still close to 2400 pounds, with half a tank.

For a 72?

Yes. Big brakes, a cage, fire suppression, leather and air conditioning all served to 'un-do' a lot of what the weight-saving measures set out to 'do.' I look at those 1800-pound cars, and I'm amazed.

Doug&Julie

FYI here in the Cinci area we also have emissions check. Technically, I couldn't remove the cat, etc to clean up the exhaust on a newer car. (although my mechanic said that half the time the guys running the e-check are too dumb to notice since an SSI unit looks like factory exhaust.) This is one reason I thought going with the '72 would be a better idea. Not to mention the '72 is totally unique with it's oil tank in front of the rear wheel and external oil filler cap. I really hate the idea of giving up such a unique car, but I just may so I can start shopping for an '80s car.

...why did I sell my '88?!?!??