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I have built a 1966 Porsche 911 2.0 race engine from parts; it cost me almost $30,000 in parts alone, and took about a year, but there is no other way to get a SWB Porsche 911 2.0 race engine. Today I purchased a good used intermediate shaft gear for that engine. That one part cost $650. To build a complete 911 from parts would require, I don't know, 500 such purchases, give or take, some costing less, some costing more. 500 x 650 = 325,000, plus a lot of specialized tools, detailed knowledge, and time. There are not many 911s that sell for $325,000. Does that answer your question (which I still am not sure I understand)?
Thank you for the input. I wouldn't be interested in racing, and not looking to make a show car. I'm also not literally talking about buying every single piece, but maybe purchasing something needing restoration, as an example, maybe something like: https://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/...pe-c-14965.htm
Bad idea? Any idea if something like this is worth it?
IF you are a proficient welder and metal-worker, IF you have the knowledge to correctly fixture the car (very painstaking without a Celette), IF you have a large shop space which you can dedicate for a few years, then you may have a fighting chance of restoring that tub. It will require a huge amount of new metal, likely some complete panel replacements and that is just to repair the tub. I am a pretty handy welder with some experience of this type of work, and I would think doing that tub would take me several years of evenings and weekends.
Restoring that car properly will be expensive.
To go down the road I think you are suggesting would make some sense under the following conditions:
You were able to find substantially complete rebuildable motor for cheap
You were able to find a tub with little-to-no rust damage for cheap
You possess excellent mechanical skills
You have good shop space available (and free)
You are willing to put in a few years of work (minimum)
Even then, you will still be paying $$ for machine shop work, $$$ for all sorts of parts and $$$$+ for good paintwork.
Under all the above conditions, you may come out not too badly underwater with something nice. If you start with basketcase stuff, forget it.
There are many threads on here and more on Pelican that document rebuilds. You may want to spend some time looking at the level of work needed.
Here is one thread I found quickly that documents a rebuild where the shell had MUCH less visible rust than that silver car...
IF you are a proficient welder and metal-worker, IF you have the knowledge to correctly fixture the car (very painstaking without a Celette), IF you have a large shop space which you can dedicate for a few years, then you may have a fighting chance of restoring that tub. It will require a huge amount of new metal, likely some complete panel replacements and that is just to repair the tub. I am a pretty handy welder with some experience of this type of work, and I would think doing that tub would take me several years of evenings and weekends.
Restoring that car properly will be expensive.
To go down the road I think you are suggesting would make some sense under the following conditions:
You were able to find substantially complete rebuildable motor for cheap
You were able to find a tub with little-to-no rust damage for cheap
You possess excellent mechanical skills
You have good shop space available (and free)
You are willing to put in a few years of work (minimum)
Even then, you will still be paying $$ for machine shop work, $$$ for all sorts of parts and $$$$+ for good paintwork.
Under all the above conditions, you may come out not too badly underwater with something nice. If you start with basketcase stuff, forget it.
There are many threads on here and more on Pelican that document rebuilds. You may want to spend some time looking at the level of work needed.
Here is one thread I found quickly that documents a rebuild where the shell had MUCH less visible rust than that silver car...
Cool, thank you for the reply. I do have dedicated garage space, am mechanical and I do all my own work except a few things, but wouldn't possess the capability for a ton of metal work. It also doesn't interest me as much as the mechanical things.
It sounds like I'd want to look for something with a solid body to begin with. I grew up building cars/ trucks with family, so the suspension/ engine, etc. doesn't bother me, neither does minor finishing. I would not paint myself, though.
There is a 76 912E locally in better shape than that silver car, with full engine that turns over (although a little rough looking). I could possibly purchase for around 15k. Seats and interior look great except for missing headliner, door panels. Some window seals.
Anyway, thank you for the response. I'm now thinking something that needs mechanical work but with a decent body is the way to go. Or something that needs a lot of maintenance for a deal, that I can perform on my own.
To the OP: Voice of experience here. As per the post of 500 above, unless you have found an intrinsically valuable rarity, and/or you want a very expensive, time-consuming, long-term hobby, it is ALWAYS better to buy a well-restored car than to restore one yourself. You asked about a 912E. The cost of restoring a 912 is the same as the cost of restoring a 911, but the final value is much less. You asked whether you can rebuild an air-cooled 70's 911 motor for under 10K? Very unlikely. Do you know enough to determine in advance whether a motor is basically fine versus not? I don't, and I've been there, done that. Here is my 1969 911T. I started to restore it myself and quickly found I was in way over my head. Way over. I decided to continue rather than bail. I learned a lot, it took about 7 years, and it cost about $100K, all-in. Only you can decide whether you want to go down this road.
To the OP: Voice of experience here. As per the post of 500 above, unless you have found an intrinsically valuable rarity, and/or you want a very expensive, time-consuming, long-term hobby, it is ALWAYS better to buy a well-restored car than to restore one yourself. You asked above whether you can rebuild an air-cooled 70's 911 motor for under 10K? That totally depends on what is needed. At one end of the spectrum, if the motor is basically fine and you do all the work yourself except machining, maybe, but probably not. At the other end of the spectrum, if the motor needs a lot and you hire all the work out, maybe $25-30K. Do you know enough to determine in advance whether the 70s 911 motor you buy on eBay is basically fine versus needs a lot? I don't, and I've been there, done that. Here is my 1969 911T. I started to restore it myself and quickly found I was in way over my head. Way over. I decided to continue rather than bail. I learned a lot, it took about 7 years, and it cost about $100K, all-in. Only you can decide whether you want to go down this road.
Nice car.
I hear what you are saying. I've always loved these old 911s, more than the new ones, so creating/ building one would be this, most likely, a fantasy as I am hearing. Purchasing something already complete wouldn't have the same affect, I think. I am starting to realize, though, maybe there is a balance on the amount of work that is needed on a purchases vs a full rebuild that will give me some satisfaction.
no one in their right mind would ever trade a classic 911 for a modern water cooled appliance mass produced on an assembly line with a Porsche badge stuck on it. not unless it was something really special
no one in their right mind would ever trade a classic 911 for a modern water cooled appliance mass produced on an assembly line with a Porsche badge stuck on it. not unless it was something really special
This seems like a thread to clearly avoid, but hey I have been drinking and I am watching a kinda boring movie with my wife so here goes: I am genuinely interested in the topic of the value of individual parts vs. the whole...which I think is loosely what this thread is about. Anyway, with the exception of well presented cars on BAT that bring top dollar, I think most "everyday driver" cars would command more money if you sold them off in parts. I am not suggesting this, because life is too short, and what an insane hassle, but I find it curious. And it is not just Porsche cars. I am in the process of selling an 06 MB CLK55 convertible that I bought 13 years ago for $29,500 (with 41K miles after the original owner paid $92K new...horrifying depreciation is not the topic). Anyway, the car is nice, two owners, and books and records since new, 72K miles, original paint, clean Carfax and title, etc...but it is probably only worth $15K. I am not fishing for a buyer and not claiming the value is "wrong," but I spent about 20 minutes online to determine that the 5.5 liter handbuilt motor is worth $10K plus, the transmission is worth $1-4K, the Brembo 6-piston front brakes (calipers and rotors) are worth $2-3K, the rear 4-piston Brembo brakes are worth $1-2K, the wheels are worth $1K or more, the top (full frame and fabric assembly) and motor are worth $2K plus, the seats are worth $3K (for front and rear), the fenders, hood, trunk, and bumpers are worth like $6K plus, and so on...not counting dash, radio, steering wheel, center console, headlights, taillights, wiper motor, and the hundreds of parts that are for sale online and needed by SOMEONE. Then, there are all the things people want to buy new, such as the battery, motor mounts, tranny mounts, bushings, window trim, relays, fuses, etc. Blah, blah, blah, the bottom line is that is probably not possible (or at least reasonable) to build a car that way...or sell one that way. Although I do think a blogger (with a staff) should sell two similar cars -- whole and parted --just so we can see what the hassle nets you.
Hey, glad you found something, please share some photos.
And I want to publicly apologize for my wise-*** comment back on March 27. I reacted badly to your initial response to raspritz. I'm sorry.
I'm glad I didn't contribute to this whole thread going sideways, and you got some good advice.
Mark
It's ok. I apologize, too. I probably came off defensive. It is hard to tell on the internet if someone is being uncool in tone.
raspritz gave some great advice and I didn't think I was going to make a certain purchase based on the photos, but after seeing the car in person, the owner's mechanic fired it up and had full maintenance records with photos of the engine rebuild. 0 oil leaks or backfires, smoke etc. He also had a ton of parts and pieces. After finishing the fuel system overhaul and battery shutoff, etc., I'll see if I can add some photos. I pulled the windows out and haven't done body work or replaced some carpet yet. The photos may not be inspiring at the moment, but I'm very excited, possibly a little scared too!
This seems like a thread to clearly avoid, but hey I have been drinking and I am watching a kinda boring movie with my wife so here goes: I am genuinely interested in the topic of the value of individual parts vs. the whole...which I think is loosely what this thread is about. Anyway, with the exception of well presented cars on BAT that bring top dollar, I think most "everyday driver" cars would command more money if you sold them off in parts. I am not suggesting this, because life is too short, and what an insane hassle, but I find it curious. And it is not just Porsche cars. I am in the process of selling an 06 MB CLK55 convertible that I bought 13 years ago for $29,500 (with 41K miles after the original owner paid $92K new...horrifying depreciation is not the topic). Anyway, the car is nice, two owners, and books and records since new, 72K miles, original paint, clean Carfax and title, etc...but it is probably only worth $15K. I am not fishing for a buyer and not claiming the value is "wrong," but I spent about 20 minutes online to determine that the 5.5 liter handbuilt motor is worth $10K plus, the transmission is worth $1-4K, the Brembo 6-piston front brakes (calipers and rotors) are worth $2-3K, the rear 4-piston Brembo brakes are worth $1-2K, the wheels are worth $1K or more, the top (full frame and fabric assembly) and motor are worth $2K plus, the seats are worth $3K (for front and rear), the fenders, hood, trunk, and bumpers are worth like $6K plus, and so on...not counting dash, radio, steering wheel, center console, headlights, taillights, wiper motor, and the hundreds of parts that are for sale online and needed by SOMEONE. Then, there are all the things people want to buy new, such as the battery, motor mounts, tranny mounts, bushings, window trim, relays, fuses, etc. Blah, blah, blah, the bottom line is that is probably not possible (or at least reasonable) to build a car that way...or sell one that way. Although I do think a blogger (with a staff) should sell two similar cars -- whole and parted --just so we can see what the hassle nets you.
Good cars. I have an SL500 that is about to earn a high mileage badge.
I don't think my original post was really about literally finding every single part and building from scratch, but assembling groups of parts or working on a project car. I ended up with something that needs a lot of work but includes probably 90% or more. I did find pretty quickly that I needed as much as possible in tact in ratio to the deal/ cost. I just need to rejuvenate and put it back together. And the paint is pretttttyyyyy interesting. A color change. But, I found this video as inspiration until I do a full job:
To the OG poster I'm glad you were able to decipher sufficient information from the white noise Imminating from this forum and were able to make a purchase that gives you a good base to work from .
I'm afraid a majority of those that frequent these pages are more often than not of the school of if I can pay for it or to get it done why on earth
would I do it my self ?
The core of your initial question to me possibly improperly phrased was is it possible to acquire a car and assemble with additional parts purchased and not end up upside down ?
My answer is sure it's possible but the willingness to dig in do some research have some mechanical acumen and be willing to make a few possibly expensive mistakes or learning set backs is all hand in hand at enjoying the enthusiast path just my two or three cents ..
Ohh and it could take longer than writing a check but hey the satisfaction is like no other ...Bert
Sounds right, and I am jealous. Decent starting-point-project-cars are hard to find. Looks like you got a "nice canvas" on which to paint your masterpiece. Good luck!
03-29-2023, 02:52 PM
