Garage Find - Is it worth it? 1978 911sc Targa
05-04-2021, 06:16 PM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Garage Find - Is it worth it? 1978 911sc Targa
Hey everybody, long time Porsche fan here, but finally getting close to buying one. Which one is the question.
I recently came across a 1978 911SC Targa. It was shipped over to the states from Germany over 20 years ago. It was driven a little bit, and then parked in a garage 16 years ago. Has not been started since. As it sits, it has just over 43,000km.
I still need to get the full story, but I know there was some sort of fuel issue before it was parked, in and out of the shop. I'm not sure if it was fixed or not. If not, from what I have read, the CIS fuel system can be quite the undertaking, with time and money.
It was originally white, needs a full repaint.
It has the pinstripe cork interior.
The Targa bar is white, which I have never seen before? i'm not sure if this was an option or a repaint at some point.
What I am looking to do with this car:
I would love to be able to get it running as new, get it painted, take it to a few meets and cruise around on the weekends here and there for 6-18 months.
Ultimately, I would like to be able to sell it and not lose money. If I break even, I think I would be ok, but would love to make money in a year or two.
Knowing it needs a full exterior repaint, likely gaskets, most of the fuel system, regardless of fuel issues, just to make sure clean fuel is going through the fuel distributor and injectors will need to be replaced, and fuel tank cleaned and coated, etc.
Questions for you long time air-cooled drivers and techs.
What would you consider to be too much to buy this car for, without knowing what may or may not be wrong with it? (I understand this is a difficult question to answer, but just a ballpark, 10-15k, 15-20k, 20-30k?)
Does anyone else have a similar barn/garage find story that may be able help me make the right decision? (success or money pit)
Is the risk worth the reward? I had the wrong thought process initially thinking a German car, imported to the states may be more desirable, but from a couple conversations I have had, it may be the opposite since they were sold much cheaper over there, and certain parts may be slightly different here in the states and be harder to come by.
I'm sure there will be much more information that you will want, and I will try to get it all, but any help would be appreciated.
Thank you!
If I don't pick up this car, there will be another one, just not air cooled.
I recently came across a 1978 911SC Targa. It was shipped over to the states from Germany over 20 years ago. It was driven a little bit, and then parked in a garage 16 years ago. Has not been started since. As it sits, it has just over 43,000km.
I still need to get the full story, but I know there was some sort of fuel issue before it was parked, in and out of the shop. I'm not sure if it was fixed or not. If not, from what I have read, the CIS fuel system can be quite the undertaking, with time and money.
It was originally white, needs a full repaint.
It has the pinstripe cork interior.
The Targa bar is white, which I have never seen before? i'm not sure if this was an option or a repaint at some point.
What I am looking to do with this car:
I would love to be able to get it running as new, get it painted, take it to a few meets and cruise around on the weekends here and there for 6-18 months.
Ultimately, I would like to be able to sell it and not lose money. If I break even, I think I would be ok, but would love to make money in a year or two.
Knowing it needs a full exterior repaint, likely gaskets, most of the fuel system, regardless of fuel issues, just to make sure clean fuel is going through the fuel distributor and injectors will need to be replaced, and fuel tank cleaned and coated, etc.
Questions for you long time air-cooled drivers and techs.
What would you consider to be too much to buy this car for, without knowing what may or may not be wrong with it? (I understand this is a difficult question to answer, but just a ballpark, 10-15k, 15-20k, 20-30k?)
Does anyone else have a similar barn/garage find story that may be able help me make the right decision? (success or money pit)
Is the risk worth the reward? I had the wrong thought process initially thinking a German car, imported to the states may be more desirable, but from a couple conversations I have had, it may be the opposite since they were sold much cheaper over there, and certain parts may be slightly different here in the states and be harder to come by.
I'm sure there will be much more information that you will want, and I will try to get it all, but any help would be appreciated.
Thank you!
If I don't pick up this car, there will be another one, just not air cooled.
05-04-2021, 07:09 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Personally, I think if you are worried about the financial downside, a 40 year old air cooled car with unknown history that's been sitting for a long time is not the bet to take.
The following users liked this post:
DevinH (05-04-2021)
05-04-2021, 08:20 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
27k miles seems pretty low for a car than needs a full repaint. And the painted Targa bar sounds odd to me, although that's not something I'm too familiar with. So basically I would be doubtful of the stated mileage. But other than that, I would not be too concerned, well other than to check that the import conversion was done well.
The following users liked this post:
DevinH (05-05-2021)
05-04-2021, 08:22 PM
#4
Intermediate
Thread Starter
You're absolutely right. Thank you for responding. In rereading my original post, it comes across as I'm trying to just be cheap. That's not really the case. I'm not trying to do anything on a shoestring budget by any means, and I want this to be a fantastic machine again, just trying to do as much as I can to know what I will be getting myself into.
05-04-2021, 08:24 PM
#5
Intermediate
Thread Starter
27k miles seems pretty low for a car than needs a full repaint. And the painted Targa bar sounds odd to me, although that's not something I'm too familiar with. So basically I would be doubtful of the stated mileage. But other than that, I would not be too concerned, well other than to check that the import conversion was done well.
As far as the import conversion, I will have to look into that. It still has the original cluster, in km/h, etc. Nothing there has been swapped.
05-04-2021, 10:06 PM
#6
Addicted Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
1. I will echo and reiterate "The Torch" and say you are asking for some kind of financial assurance where none can possibly exist. Break even? Not lose money? Forget about making dough on this as who has that crystal ball. Seriously, and not to be a contrarian: values have been up/down for decades. There was a time when the SCs were stupid cheap, then got stupid pricey, and now levelled but still can fetch good coin. Long-hood cars were once genuinely affordable but not terribly popular, then folks got nostalgic and their prices skyrocketed, and haven't ever come down ...they even spawned a long-hood conversion niche industry of the then-cheap SCs to be backdated. The 993 was fetching crazy prices as folks shunned the 964 which was the market's red-headed stepchild, but then the best bargain in town! Until it wasn't. Now look how 993s faced a stiff market correction and 964s went nuts. And the Targa body? Sorry, but not a hot item in the marketplace and has historically been overshadowed by the coupes. But I betcha that will also change for the simplest reason: it's all cyclical and based on whim. Anyone looking for some kind of financial return on investment is better served at bitcoin speculation.
2. There is nothing "affordable" about any car restoration, any car. Now factor in a "Porsche" which carries with it a panache and myriad other preconceptions and you have a restoration money pit. Folks do it because they love it, are passionate about their heap on jackstands, and even when mindful of their budgets they willingly pay the piper because the car means something to them. Labor costs these days is astronomical; nothing like it was even just a scant decade ago. That quality paint alone is going to cost you far more than you can hope to recoup because at point of sale, a quality paint job is an expectation with a 911 more than it is a plus.
3. Precious little is cheap about a 911, this we know. Sure some things like spark plugs and a dizzy cap are still genuinely cheap, but really, truly, not much else. Price a WUR (warm-up regulator). Or whatever CIS part. And this if you can even find what you need! If you're in a smog-friendly state and have a dead CIS for example, you can absolutely go with carbs and have a great setup. Now price PMOs! So yeah, the mundane like brake calipers or suspension bits are still kind of normal and readily available. But some of that must-have stuff is getting frightening. How about a rebuild: trans are >5k, engine >12k. Even a mere clutch is "only" 2k-ish but when you get the engine out and you do the "while you're in there" dance, watch that number go double-plus. Yeah, the numbers I'm tossing out there are replete with a bazillion variables, but they are genuine ballpark figures that anyone contemplating such a venture must know. So even when you say you're not pinching pennies, you will be paying dearly to get the car up to snuff, but likely won't be recouping your costs because when a 911 is put up for sale, "up to snuff" is an expectation, not a perk. Price a well-sorted 911; compare this a fixer-upper. That price delta is a pittance compared to what the sum costs were to resurrect it.
4. "Fantastic" machines these are, which is why they fetch the dough and still cause many a craving among car geeks everywhere. But making your find "fantastic" is going to come at a price that no one can ever predict will yield a "return on investment" that makes sense, let alone satisfy you in the future. Anyone passionate about 911s will tell you straight up that very little "makes sense" about why we love them. It is a form of derangement that is logically weighed, then embraced, as if rationalizing insanity. Sharing here is mere group therapy for the afflicted.
5. I am not discouraging you at all. But IMO, your post seems like perhaps you have some expectations that may leave you more than disappointed in the end. So tread carefully. And if you're good to go, then do it! Then post your journey here so we can enjoy it with you!
Edward
2. There is nothing "affordable" about any car restoration, any car. Now factor in a "Porsche" which carries with it a panache and myriad other preconceptions and you have a restoration money pit. Folks do it because they love it, are passionate about their heap on jackstands, and even when mindful of their budgets they willingly pay the piper because the car means something to them. Labor costs these days is astronomical; nothing like it was even just a scant decade ago. That quality paint alone is going to cost you far more than you can hope to recoup because at point of sale, a quality paint job is an expectation with a 911 more than it is a plus.
3. Precious little is cheap about a 911, this we know. Sure some things like spark plugs and a dizzy cap are still genuinely cheap, but really, truly, not much else. Price a WUR (warm-up regulator). Or whatever CIS part. And this if you can even find what you need! If you're in a smog-friendly state and have a dead CIS for example, you can absolutely go with carbs and have a great setup. Now price PMOs! So yeah, the mundane like brake calipers or suspension bits are still kind of normal and readily available. But some of that must-have stuff is getting frightening. How about a rebuild: trans are >5k, engine >12k. Even a mere clutch is "only" 2k-ish but when you get the engine out and you do the "while you're in there" dance, watch that number go double-plus. Yeah, the numbers I'm tossing out there are replete with a bazillion variables, but they are genuine ballpark figures that anyone contemplating such a venture must know. So even when you say you're not pinching pennies, you will be paying dearly to get the car up to snuff, but likely won't be recouping your costs because when a 911 is put up for sale, "up to snuff" is an expectation, not a perk. Price a well-sorted 911; compare this a fixer-upper. That price delta is a pittance compared to what the sum costs were to resurrect it.
4. "Fantastic" machines these are, which is why they fetch the dough and still cause many a craving among car geeks everywhere. But making your find "fantastic" is going to come at a price that no one can ever predict will yield a "return on investment" that makes sense, let alone satisfy you in the future. Anyone passionate about 911s will tell you straight up that very little "makes sense" about why we love them. It is a form of derangement that is logically weighed, then embraced, as if rationalizing insanity. Sharing here is mere group therapy for the afflicted.
5. I am not discouraging you at all. But IMO, your post seems like perhaps you have some expectations that may leave you more than disappointed in the end. So tread carefully. And if you're good to go, then do it! Then post your journey here so we can enjoy it with you!
Edward
Last edited by Edward; 05-04-2021 at 10:30 PM.
05-04-2021, 10:27 PM
#7
pull the plugs and see if the engine can be turned over - report back
Do you own a body shop?
Can you fix, and are you interested in fixing any mech. problems you find yourself?
Do you own a body shop?
Can you fix, and are you interested in fixing any mech. problems you find yourself?
The following users liked this post:
DevinH (05-05-2021)
Trending Topics
05-04-2021, 11:53 PM
#8
Instructor
I purchased an ‘83 SC cabriolet last April. It was a 2 owner car with the last owner since ‘87. It had 45K miles and never been in an accident. The previous owner performed the minimum required maintenance. By the time I bought the car, performed all necessary maintenance (shocks, tires, clutch, cam chain tensioner upgrade, pop off valve, rebuilt brakes, etc.), had a bare metal, glass out repaint, and redid the entire interior and top, I could have bought a pristine, all original example. On top of that the entire process took almost a year.
It’s a slippery slope when it comes to spending time and money (even with a known starting point). I had two PPI’s, paint meter readings, and knew the previous owner and car.
OEM parts can be hard to find and sometimes very expensive.
Now I just have to dry ice the undercarriage.
It’s a slippery slope when it comes to spending time and money (even with a known starting point). I had two PPI’s, paint meter readings, and knew the previous owner and car.
OEM parts can be hard to find and sometimes very expensive.
Now I just have to dry ice the undercarriage.
05-04-2021, 11:59 PM
#9
I purchased an ‘83 SC cabriolet last April. It was a 2 owner car with the last owner since ‘87. It had 45K miles and never been in an accident. The previous owner performed the minimum required maintenance. By the time I bought the car, performed all necessary maintenance (shocks, tires, clutch, cam chain tensioner upgrade, pop off valve, rebuilt brakes, etc.), had a bare metal, glass out repaint, and redid the entire interior and top, I could have bought a pristine, all original example. On top of that the entire process took almost a year.
It’s a slippery slope when it comes to spending time and money (even with a known starting point). I had two PPI’s, paint meter readings, and knew the previous owner and car.
OEM parts can be hard to find and sometimes very expensive.
Now I just have to dry ice the undercarriage.
It’s a slippery slope when it comes to spending time and money (even with a known starting point). I had two PPI’s, paint meter readings, and knew the previous owner and car.
OEM parts can be hard to find and sometimes very expensive.
Now I just have to dry ice the undercarriage.
05-05-2021, 09:38 AM
#10
Intermediate
Thread Starter
My original post sounded much more naïve than intended. I won't take it down however, as maybe someone else can learn from it.
05-05-2021, 09:40 AM
#11
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I purchased an ‘83 SC cabriolet last April. It was a 2 owner car with the last owner since ‘87. It had 45K miles and never been in an accident. The previous owner performed the minimum required maintenance. By the time I bought the car, performed all necessary maintenance (shocks, tires, clutch, cam chain tensioner upgrade, pop off valve, rebuilt brakes, etc.), had a bare metal, glass out repaint, and redid the entire interior and top, I could have bought a pristine, all original example. On top of that the entire process took almost a year.
It’s a slippery slope when it comes to spending time and money (even with a known starting point). I had two PPI’s, paint meter readings, and knew the previous owner and car.
OEM parts can be hard to find and sometimes very expensive.
Now I just have to dry ice the undercarriage.
It’s a slippery slope when it comes to spending time and money (even with a known starting point). I had two PPI’s, paint meter readings, and knew the previous owner and car.
OEM parts can be hard to find and sometimes very expensive.
Now I just have to dry ice the undercarriage.
I'll have to search for posts of your car, it sounds great!
The dry ice videos on youtube are my new favorite for "satisfying videos to watch". I would love to do it with this car if we pick it up.
Last edited by DevinH; 05-05-2021 at 09:48 AM.
05-05-2021, 09:46 AM
#12
Intermediate
Thread Starter
1. I will echo and reiterate "The Torch" and say you are asking for some kind of financial assurance where none can possibly exist. Break even? Not lose money? Forget about making dough on this as who has that crystal ball. Seriously, and not to be a contrarian: values have been up/down for decades. There was a time when the SCs were stupid cheap, then got stupid pricey, and now levelled but still can fetch good coin. Long-hood cars were once genuinely affordable but not terribly popular, then folks got nostalgic and their prices skyrocketed, and haven't ever come down ...they even spawned a long-hood conversion niche industry of the then-cheap SCs to be backdated. The 993 was fetching crazy prices as folks shunned the 964 which was the market's red-headed stepchild, but then the best bargain in town! Until it wasn't. Now look how 993s faced a stiff market correction and 964s went nuts. And the Targa body? Sorry, but not a hot item in the marketplace and has historically been overshadowed by the coupes. But I betcha that will also change for the simplest reason: it's all cyclical and based on whim. Anyone looking for some kind of financial return on investment is better served at bitcoin speculation.
2. There is nothing "affordable" about any car restoration, any car. Now factor in a "Porsche" which carries with it a panache and myriad other preconceptions and you have a restoration money pit. Folks do it because they love it, are passionate about their heap on jackstands, and even when mindful of their budgets they willingly pay the piper because the car means something to them. Labor costs these days is astronomical; nothing like it was even just a scant decade ago. That quality paint alone is going to cost you far more than you can hope to recoup because at point of sale, a quality paint job is an expectation with a 911 more than it is a plus.
3. Precious little is cheap about a 911, this we know. Sure some things like spark plugs and a dizzy cap are still genuinely cheap, but really, truly, not much else. Price a WUR (warm-up regulator). Or whatever CIS part. And this if you can even find what you need! If you're in a smog-friendly state and have a dead CIS for example, you can absolutely go with carbs and have a great setup. Now price PMOs! So yeah, the mundane like brake calipers or suspension bits are still kind of normal and readily available. But some of that must-have stuff is getting frightening. How about a rebuild: trans are >5k, engine >12k. Even a mere clutch is "only" 2k-ish but when you get the engine out and you do the "while you're in there" dance, watch that number go double-plus. Yeah, the numbers I'm tossing out there are replete with a bazillion variables, but they are genuine ballpark figures that anyone contemplating such a venture must know. So even when you say you're not pinching pennies, you will be paying dearly to get the car up to snuff, but likely won't be recouping your costs because when a 911 is put up for sale, "up to snuff" is an expectation, not a perk. Price a well-sorted 911; compare this a fixer-upper. That price delta is a pittance compared to what the sum costs were to resurrect it.
4. "Fantastic" machines these are, which is why they fetch the dough and still cause many a craving among car geeks everywhere. But making your find "fantastic" is going to come at a price that no one can ever predict will yield a "return on investment" that makes sense, let alone satisfy you in the future. Anyone passionate about 911s will tell you straight up that very little "makes sense" about why we love them. It is a form of derangement that is logically weighed, then embraced, as if rationalizing insanity. Sharing here is mere group therapy for the afflicted.
5. I am not discouraging you at all. But IMO, your post seems like perhaps you have some expectations that may leave you more than disappointed in the end. So tread carefully. And if you're good to go, then do it! Then post your journey here so we can enjoy it with you!
Edward
2. There is nothing "affordable" about any car restoration, any car. Now factor in a "Porsche" which carries with it a panache and myriad other preconceptions and you have a restoration money pit. Folks do it because they love it, are passionate about their heap on jackstands, and even when mindful of their budgets they willingly pay the piper because the car means something to them. Labor costs these days is astronomical; nothing like it was even just a scant decade ago. That quality paint alone is going to cost you far more than you can hope to recoup because at point of sale, a quality paint job is an expectation with a 911 more than it is a plus.
3. Precious little is cheap about a 911, this we know. Sure some things like spark plugs and a dizzy cap are still genuinely cheap, but really, truly, not much else. Price a WUR (warm-up regulator). Or whatever CIS part. And this if you can even find what you need! If you're in a smog-friendly state and have a dead CIS for example, you can absolutely go with carbs and have a great setup. Now price PMOs! So yeah, the mundane like brake calipers or suspension bits are still kind of normal and readily available. But some of that must-have stuff is getting frightening. How about a rebuild: trans are >5k, engine >12k. Even a mere clutch is "only" 2k-ish but when you get the engine out and you do the "while you're in there" dance, watch that number go double-plus. Yeah, the numbers I'm tossing out there are replete with a bazillion variables, but they are genuine ballpark figures that anyone contemplating such a venture must know. So even when you say you're not pinching pennies, you will be paying dearly to get the car up to snuff, but likely won't be recouping your costs because when a 911 is put up for sale, "up to snuff" is an expectation, not a perk. Price a well-sorted 911; compare this a fixer-upper. That price delta is a pittance compared to what the sum costs were to resurrect it.
4. "Fantastic" machines these are, which is why they fetch the dough and still cause many a craving among car geeks everywhere. But making your find "fantastic" is going to come at a price that no one can ever predict will yield a "return on investment" that makes sense, let alone satisfy you in the future. Anyone passionate about 911s will tell you straight up that very little "makes sense" about why we love them. It is a form of derangement that is logically weighed, then embraced, as if rationalizing insanity. Sharing here is mere group therapy for the afflicted.
5. I am not discouraging you at all. But IMO, your post seems like perhaps you have some expectations that may leave you more than disappointed in the end. So tread carefully. And if you're good to go, then do it! Then post your journey here so we can enjoy it with you!
Edward
I have done more reading on these cars in the last week than ever before. I am excited and nervous, just need to give it a good look over once more before I make my decision. I was only able to spend a few minutes with it last weekend.
You may be seeing my name in the technical section much more in the near future.
The following users liked this post:
Booth9999 (05-05-2021)
05-05-2021, 10:31 AM
#13
Team Owner
You buy these cars because you love them in my mind and putting the financial piece it the very back of your mind ....
buying a project car with the hope of one day breaking even or making money is a fools endeavor in my mind...
pass and buy a one already sorted to enjoy today .. or you might end up with one you can drive 12 months AFTER your 6-18 month period.
buying a project car with the hope of one day breaking even or making money is a fools endeavor in my mind...
pass and buy a one already sorted to enjoy today .. or you might end up with one you can drive 12 months AFTER your 6-18 month period.
05-05-2021, 11:00 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
You buy these cars because you love them in my mind and putting the financial piece it the very back of your mind ....
buying a project car with the hope of one day breaking even or making money is a fools endeavor in my mind...
pass and buy a one already sorted to enjoy today .. or you might end up with one you can drive 12 months AFTER your 6-18 month period.
buying a project car with the hope of one day breaking even or making money is a fools endeavor in my mind...
pass and buy a one already sorted to enjoy today .. or you might end up with one you can drive 12 months AFTER your 6-18 month period.
05-05-2021, 11:00 AM
#15
White targa bar means they painted it body color when they did the color change. Mine is also white with a white targa bar. Think of it like “forward dating”. My wheel centers were also color matched. Personally I’d like them to be a little more traditional and put them back to black, but the paint is in exceptional condition so I have those things pretty far down the list. If yours needs paint then you have the opportunity to address it then, but my understanding is that getting them back to the aluminum finish (personally I think this is the best look of all) is usually not worth the time and money, so black targa bar is good looking / period correct and won’t break the bank in what will be an already expensive paint job.
As for price, that’s really difficult will all your unknowns. It seems like anything in your mid range and below would leave you a decent amount of room to spend and still get out if you needed to, barring any catastrophic issues. Maybe look at nice finished ones asking prices and then back into it from there with some extra “cushion”.
As for price, that’s really difficult will all your unknowns. It seems like anything in your mid range and below would leave you a decent amount of room to spend and still get out if you needed to, barring any catastrophic issues. Maybe look at nice finished ones asking prices and then back into it from there with some extra “cushion”.