kksarver

Okay,
Need some advice on my A/C repair. Driving down the road it decided to blow out warm air. Not good for the desert climate I am in here in the Mojave Desert.
For the past 2 years I am having to replace freon (R12) that apparently is leaking out of my system. Have had the compressor shaft seal replaced but is still leaking (Nippo Compressor).
I have spoken with Dianna at Performance Aire. She told me that the compressor will inherently leak at the shaft seal due to design flaw on this compressor.
As the car is going on 19 years of age (86 Carrera) I asked about other possibilities for leaks and improvements. She recommended the following:
At a minimum - Replace all lines, compressor, and receiver dryer.
At maximum for best cooling - Also add the static cooler (condenser)on the belly pan, and also add the bulkhead vent (replaces bow tie).
To do this without labor will cost around $1900. Add another $800 if I have them do the work.
Does anyone have experience with Performance Aire (Good or Bad)?
Any other recommendations?

kksarver

Someone out there has had some problems with there A/C.

Jgordon

I think the problem is that everyone has had problems with their air conditioning. If you do a search here and on pelican, try looking for Kuehl and other topics. Some people have had great success, it's just a question of money.

Jared

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

FWIW,...we've had really good luck with the A/C products and assistance from Griffiths.

Strongly recommended on my part, based on experience. (800) 451.7225.

JCP911S

KK.... just some unsolicited opinions.... keep your expectations reasonable... I spent hundreds of $$ on my old 81 SC for AC, and got cool puffs of air sufficient for a warmish spring day. Maybe the Carrara is better, but I never had AC in my 84, and decided to save my money.... personal decision as I take the top off when it is hot anyway....

I really doubt whether the AC in these cars will ever be up to the Mohave desert... or even an August day at the Jersey shore.... who knows...but if you think you are going to get anything remotely like an "86 Ford Taurus, for example... I think you are going to be disappointed...

Just my 2 cents...

Jgordon

JCP, like I said, it's a question of money. Your hundreds don't make a dent in the $1660 Kuehl setup (for parts alone, nevermind labor and anything else you might try to change). It is possible, from what I've heard, to get these cars cold, but you have to be willing to throw some serious change at the problem. As in, $$ equal to SSIs, a monty muffler, and other niceties. I say this now, in june I'll be asking what you did to the SC.

If anyone has a cheaper alternative (aside from dry ice in the backseat or something) let me know. My $120 freon re-up lasted a solid 3 weeks.

Steve, do you have an idea of what a standard Griffiths setup runs?

scottb

1. We start with the premise that 911 a/c is inadequate. Period.

2. Nippondenso compressors are fine units. There are millions of them in service all over the world. Any compressor with seals will leak eventually. Seals wear out.

3. If you have the stock hoses, your freon is also leaking from them. New hoses are what are known as "barrier" hoses, and do not leak like the factory hoses. This is a dirty DIY job, but it is do-able. You can buy hose in bulk, and then have a local a/c or hose shop put the ends on for you.

4. The factory system, even with new hoses and a non-leaking compressor, will not keep you cool out in Mojave. The problem is that there is not enough condenser surface to exchange sufficient heat. At best you'll get cool air on a hot desert day. You won't get cold.

5. I added a front left condenser/fan assembly in place of the water bottle and vapor recovery tanks. I also added a Procooler. The combination of the two gives me mid-30 degree vent temps on a hot Southern California Day. I purchased the condenser parts from www.iceac.com. Not a turnkey kit, but it fit nicely with some bracket fabrication. The Procooler came from www.procooler.com. The washer bottle was replaced with a smaller unit and relocated into the trunk, and the vapor recovery tank was replaced with a smaller "catch can."

6. The Performance Aire underbelly condenser is great, but you have to be moving for it to be effective. It's passive, and requires air flow. If you're in traffic, it will be less effective and the heat will be radiating up through the floor boards.

7. Despite what other people will tell you, if I were you out in Mojave, I'd stick with R12. R134 just won't cut it in those temps.

I hope this helps!

DGaunt

As far as refilll are concerned, you need to go to a good shop and have them 'sniff' out the leak. simply refilling the system is not a solution.
Like a mechanic told me about my brakes once, it is not enough to fill the reservoir, you have to find out where it (blake fluid) went! turned out it went on the floor...master cylinder.

While we are on the subject though, The OE, well dealer installed, air on my old '76 benefitted greatly from a Sanden Compressor, and a chemical cleaning of the condenser which was partly plugged as evidenced by high high-side pressure. Of course, the under dash air such as mine moves lots of air through 4 vents, as opposed to the SC's one(?) So, my advice is first make sure everything is in spec, upgrade the compressor and vents if needed, then add condensers until you get where you want to go. I agree with Griffiths and Kuel being good sources. No prob with others, Just no experience.
Even after I changed over to R134, the A/C can handle high 90s and 90% humidity effectively at everything but idle. The R134 does cost you hmmmm...15% cooling?

JCP911S

JG.... Porsches are amazing beasts... no problem that cubic dollars won't cure..... for me, SSI and a nice set of 9' Fuchs sound nice......come August I have one simple three letter solution to the problem....BMW

kksarver

All thanks for the inputs/ideas/advice. Do not mind spending dollars as long as they will stay in the system longer than a couple of months.
My expections are not that high as far as the A/C goes as there is not much volume. But when I first got the car and it did function properly I could stay cool enough to not sweat while driving even here in the desert.
Did not think about the static as far as traffic goes. Griffiths condensor for the rear is good idea I think even with fan assembly but the catalytic converter sits right below it. Counter productive as far as removing heat I think.
Where can bulk hose be bought at. What sizes are needed for all of them. Looks like varying sizes which are metric. Can the existing fittings be reused along with new seals?

Thanks

Ken

scottb

Charlie Griffiths swears by the rear condenser unit. I've always been skeptical, a bit.

The hoses are number 6, 8 and 10. I'm sure any a/c shop can supply them for you. But, if you're going to do the work yourself, pull out the old ones and take them down to the shop. Then they can compare and give you what you need. Remember, too much hose is good. You can cut it down. Too little means waste, or splicing. Neither is a good option. Measure carefully, and mind the old adage "measure twice, cut once." Don't be in a situation where you "cut it twice, and it was still too short!"

Do a search on the Pelican board. I think there's a shop in Arizona that works with Porsche owners, and has great prices. They sell bulk hose. A local a/c shop will have it, too.

The old ends can be reused with new O rings. In fact, if you weren't replacing the hoses, but instead were just replacing the compressor, for example, you'd reuse the existing hose ends with new O rings. Wherever you get your hoses will have O rings. They're dirt cheap. Buy lots of extras.

Scott

Jeremy Cottrell

Even easier, 2 letters VW. An 88 Jetta will freeze your ---- off!!

griffiths

The rear fender Kuehl Condenser systems are NOT affected by catalytic converters, waste gates or headers. The blower fan is mounted on the outer side of the assembly, facing the outer fender rather than facing the inner fender wall. Air is pulled from the outer side of the assembly, forced through the condenser and directed toward the engine side. Temperatures adjacent to cat's and headers do not rise high enough to affect the components; this is a well thought out, fully tested and proven design.

Barrier AC hoses feeding the condenser are shielded by a stainless steel heat shield above the header area.

There are basically two versions of the Kuehl Condenser:
the reward unit, which is mounted behind the driver's side (US) rear tire, and the foward or Duehl-Kuehl unit, which mounted in front the same tire. The Duehl Kuehl unit is an option to be used for early years lacking a front condenser or for climates having greater heat loads. Both designs are protected with a nylon 6/6 stone guard.

The Kuehl Condensers fit all 911's through 1989 (pre C2) and are designed to run in series with existing stock deck lid and front condensers (were applicable).

Benefits of the Kuehl units include:
A) the ability to safely and effectively use R134a to achieve low vent temperatures in most climates (including FL, TX, and the Southwest),
B) increasing the ac system capacity to remove more BTU's from the refrigerant,
C) increase in volume of lower temperature liquid refrigerant which
allows you to upgrade or increase evaporator size (ie. the Kuehl serpentine evaporator) for greater low vent temps across a larger range of fan speeds,
D) reducing the pressures in the rear deck lid condenser which equates to lowering then air temperatures entering the engine compartment.

early developments: http://www.griffiths.com/porsche/ac/ice/mrice1.htm

today: http://www.griffiths.com/porsche/ac/...htm#Condensers

msrecca

I had the entire "project ice" treatment done to my 86 coupe at Charlie Griffiths shop. 2 years later I still get sub 40 Degree F air from the vents I threw a lot of money at the project but may be the best money I have spent on the car for the New Jersey summers. Griffith's is FAA shop doing A/C as a sideline or obsessive engineereing project. I have no connection with the shop other than happy customer.

scottb

Charlie:

Can one use the "Duehl Kuehl" condenser without the Kuehl condenser? If so, how does it integrate into the system?

Thanks.