Engine Reinstalled, Ticking in bank 1
07-11-2011, 06:26 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Engine Reinstalled, Ticking in bank 1
Hey all.
I just finished getting the engine back in the car and fired it up today. 1999 996 C2.
A lot of work was done including valve job, new 4th & 5th chains, new lifters, plugs, etc. etc. etc.
It seems to run great. No DTCs or CELs, very smooth.
Except for one problem. The 1-3 head is very noisy, it seems like there is ticking from the entire bank, although perhaps more pronounced from #3. By comparison cylinder 4-6 head is very quiet, sounds normal.
I haven't had a chance to attach the PST2 but any suggestions on what to look at first?
I'm going to start by checking the spark plug torque, perhaps one is loose.
I already pulled the exhaust header on bank 1 and found that one of the bolts wasn't torqued, so there was a little exhaust noise coming from there, but that is now resolved and the "lifter like" noise is still there.
Here is a 10 second video of the "normal" 4-6 head. You can hear a faint ticking in the back ground which is actually the 1-3 head.
Here is a video of the 1-3 head that sounds like all the lifters are misbehaving.
Please give me some ideas here!!!!
Thanks in advance
I just finished getting the engine back in the car and fired it up today. 1999 996 C2.
A lot of work was done including valve job, new 4th & 5th chains, new lifters, plugs, etc. etc. etc.
It seems to run great. No DTCs or CELs, very smooth.
Except for one problem. The 1-3 head is very noisy, it seems like there is ticking from the entire bank, although perhaps more pronounced from #3. By comparison cylinder 4-6 head is very quiet, sounds normal.
I haven't had a chance to attach the PST2 but any suggestions on what to look at first?
I'm going to start by checking the spark plug torque, perhaps one is loose.
I already pulled the exhaust header on bank 1 and found that one of the bolts wasn't torqued, so there was a little exhaust noise coming from there, but that is now resolved and the "lifter like" noise is still there.
Here is a 10 second video of the "normal" 4-6 head. You can hear a faint ticking in the back ground which is actually the 1-3 head.
Here is a video of the 1-3 head that sounds like all the lifters are misbehaving.
Please give me some ideas here!!!!
Thanks in advance
07-11-2011, 06:39 PM
#2
Race Director
My advice would be to use a mechanic's sthescope and as best you can pinpoint the source of the noise. Where the ticking is coming from influences greatly what you do you next.
I do not know your skill level regarding engine assembly and I can't cover everything in a post but it is very important that the lifters be charged with oil. While I've never worked on a Porsche engine the technique I was taught and used with other engines applies and the lifter wants to be submerged in a can or container of clean engine oil and the zero-lash portion worked until it pumps up. Now the Porsche lifters are a bit more complex (at least have more chambers to ensure are filled) than the lifters from say a Chrysler 318CI V8.
Now even if one doesn't do the above,if a lifter gets installed with an 'air bubble' a bit of engine running should put it right. All lifter experience a bleed down well all that are under pressure from being pushed on by a cam lobe and end this way when the engine stops when the engine is shut off. Over time the oil gets squeezed out and upon engine start the zero lash lifter is collapsed. But oil flow to the lifter bore and the lifter body then into the zero lash lifter portion should happen PDQ.
The other very critical aspect of this is the camshaft covers want to be properly installed. The 'right' amount of sealant and the right type. As you know the camshaft cover contains is the upper half of all the camshaft bearings. The use of the proper type of sealant and the right amount sealant and adhering to the very important tightening sequence and torque settings to make sure the camshaft cover goes on right and it is tightened down evenly which as a very important side effect squeezes the sealant down (and any excess out) to where there remains a very thin layer of sealant that not only seals the cover down around its outside edge but also seals the cover down around the bearings and results in the proper bearing clearances. Improper (too large) bearing clearances is an internal oil leak and can result in one or more bearings and lifters running with a low oil supply and lower than desired oil pressure.
Very tricky these Porsche camshaft covers based on what I have seen/observed with their installation.
On a related note, years ago I got 'bit' by not properly checking all oil passages in an engine block. What happened was the machine shop worker drove one oil passage plugs into an oil passage. The result was a partial blockage of an oil passage that fed oil the camshaft bearing and some lifters (thankfully at the front of the engine).
Even though I properly charged all lifters, used plenty of the right assembly lube and cranked the engine oil pump using an electric motor then cranked the engine using the starter motor and before installing the spark plugs, the engine had a similar ticking noise upon its first start and even after running some time.
To address the ticking, it took the removal of most of the front of the engine to gain access to the oil passage and with some probing I found the old plug blocking an oil passage and was able to remove the plug without having to remove the engine from the truck. Once the engine was back together upon engine restart the ticking noise disappeared in just moments.
So you have to worry about oil supply to the camshaft and the lifters (all of them) and even the cam chain tensioners though the noise doesn't sound like a tensioner but instead sounds like a noisy lifter.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I do not know your skill level regarding engine assembly and I can't cover everything in a post but it is very important that the lifters be charged with oil. While I've never worked on a Porsche engine the technique I was taught and used with other engines applies and the lifter wants to be submerged in a can or container of clean engine oil and the zero-lash portion worked until it pumps up. Now the Porsche lifters are a bit more complex (at least have more chambers to ensure are filled) than the lifters from say a Chrysler 318CI V8.
Now even if one doesn't do the above,if a lifter gets installed with an 'air bubble' a bit of engine running should put it right. All lifter experience a bleed down well all that are under pressure from being pushed on by a cam lobe and end this way when the engine stops when the engine is shut off. Over time the oil gets squeezed out and upon engine start the zero lash lifter is collapsed. But oil flow to the lifter bore and the lifter body then into the zero lash lifter portion should happen PDQ.
The other very critical aspect of this is the camshaft covers want to be properly installed. The 'right' amount of sealant and the right type. As you know the camshaft cover contains is the upper half of all the camshaft bearings. The use of the proper type of sealant and the right amount sealant and adhering to the very important tightening sequence and torque settings to make sure the camshaft cover goes on right and it is tightened down evenly which as a very important side effect squeezes the sealant down (and any excess out) to where there remains a very thin layer of sealant that not only seals the cover down around its outside edge but also seals the cover down around the bearings and results in the proper bearing clearances. Improper (too large) bearing clearances is an internal oil leak and can result in one or more bearings and lifters running with a low oil supply and lower than desired oil pressure.
Very tricky these Porsche camshaft covers based on what I have seen/observed with their installation.
On a related note, years ago I got 'bit' by not properly checking all oil passages in an engine block. What happened was the machine shop worker drove one oil passage plugs into an oil passage. The result was a partial blockage of an oil passage that fed oil the camshaft bearing and some lifters (thankfully at the front of the engine).
Even though I properly charged all lifters, used plenty of the right assembly lube and cranked the engine oil pump using an electric motor then cranked the engine using the starter motor and before installing the spark plugs, the engine had a similar ticking noise upon its first start and even after running some time.
To address the ticking, it took the removal of most of the front of the engine to gain access to the oil passage and with some probing I found the old plug blocking an oil passage and was able to remove the plug without having to remove the engine from the truck. Once the engine was back together upon engine restart the ticking noise disappeared in just moments.
So you have to worry about oil supply to the camshaft and the lifters (all of them) and even the cam chain tensioners though the noise doesn't sound like a tensioner but instead sounds like a noisy lifter.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-11-2011, 07:03 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thank you for the ideas.
The lifters were soaked in oil for 3 weeks prior to installation. They could not be pumped anymore and were extremely stiff, I did not use any tools to try and compress them. One would think that the lifters would fill with oil after 5 minutes of running, perhaps you are on to something with the blockage. The lifter carrier was properly torqued and the lifter races were coated with engine assembly lube. The valve job was completed by professionals at a machine shop, although perhaps they didn't "catch" an oil passageway blockage, or perhaps created one by mistake. Maybe it could be in the block.
After I have the plugs removed and re-torqued I'll use the stethescope.
As for the cam cover installation. I followed the specifications of a 1.5 mm bead and torqued them back down per the specific tightening sequence for each of the 23 bolts on the cover. And then repeated the process for bank 2.
The lifters were soaked in oil for 3 weeks prior to installation. They could not be pumped anymore and were extremely stiff, I did not use any tools to try and compress them. One would think that the lifters would fill with oil after 5 minutes of running, perhaps you are on to something with the blockage. The lifter carrier was properly torqued and the lifter races were coated with engine assembly lube. The valve job was completed by professionals at a machine shop, although perhaps they didn't "catch" an oil passageway blockage, or perhaps created one by mistake. Maybe it could be in the block.
After I have the plugs removed and re-torqued I'll use the stethescope.
As for the cam cover installation. I followed the specifications of a 1.5 mm bead and torqued them back down per the specific tightening sequence for each of the 23 bolts on the cover. And then repeated the process for bank 2.
07-11-2011, 07:18 PM
#4
Race Director
It is best to pump the lifters to fill them with oil and to ensure they hold oil, retain pressure, that the check ball valve doesn't leak.
In short to ensure the lifter works out of the box. A bad new one is rare but you want to guard against using one by accident because it can mean a lot of extra work to get to the bad lifter to replace it.
I tend to agree that even if one was not pumped up properly, if one (or more) had some air trapped, the air should have been displaced shortly after engine start.
When you started the engine did you run the engine at a high idle speed for a while? I do not know what Porsche recommends for these engines (I asked about attending a Porsche engine class (at my expense) offered by the factory/PCNA but these classes are for employees only) but when starting an engine after rebuild the general technique was to start the engine and bring the rpms up to 2K or so and let the engine run at the speed for awhile. The exhaust pipes would glow dull red.
The idea was to keep the rpms up and the oil pressure at max to mainly ensure the valve lifte/lobe interfaces received plenty of oil during that initial run in during which the lobe and lifter faces mated and developed a mating surface that could withstand the ravages of time without wearing out.
Regarding the sealant. The beading looks ok but it is important to use the right sealant. The right sealant has a viscosity and consistency that ensures under the proper tightening sequence it squeezes down to whatever thickness it should be. Those bearings are line bored and their diameters set at the factory using a special or specific sealant. It is important to use one that matches the factory sealant's characsteristics to ensure the same thickness of sealant is obtained so the bearing diameters are correct. If the sealant is too thick or too thin the bearing is too large or too small and not round either.
Last but not least, you got a lot of guts working on an engine with bare feet. Be careful. If you drop something heavy...oh my!
Sincerely,
Macster.
In short to ensure the lifter works out of the box. A bad new one is rare but you want to guard against using one by accident because it can mean a lot of extra work to get to the bad lifter to replace it.
I tend to agree that even if one was not pumped up properly, if one (or more) had some air trapped, the air should have been displaced shortly after engine start.
When you started the engine did you run the engine at a high idle speed for a while? I do not know what Porsche recommends for these engines (I asked about attending a Porsche engine class (at my expense) offered by the factory/PCNA but these classes are for employees only) but when starting an engine after rebuild the general technique was to start the engine and bring the rpms up to 2K or so and let the engine run at the speed for awhile. The exhaust pipes would glow dull red.
The idea was to keep the rpms up and the oil pressure at max to mainly ensure the valve lifte/lobe interfaces received plenty of oil during that initial run in during which the lobe and lifter faces mated and developed a mating surface that could withstand the ravages of time without wearing out.
Regarding the sealant. The beading looks ok but it is important to use the right sealant. The right sealant has a viscosity and consistency that ensures under the proper tightening sequence it squeezes down to whatever thickness it should be. Those bearings are line bored and their diameters set at the factory using a special or specific sealant. It is important to use one that matches the factory sealant's characsteristics to ensure the same thickness of sealant is obtained so the bearing diameters are correct. If the sealant is too thick or too thin the bearing is too large or too small and not round either.
Last but not least, you got a lot of guts working on an engine with bare feet. Be careful. If you drop something heavy...oh my!
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-11-2011, 07:41 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I am using High Performance Copper Loctite 5920. (thanks Doug, if you happen to read this).
FORTUNATELY, IT WAS JUST A LOOSE/BAD SPARK PLUG OR CONNECTION. After R&R bank 1's plugs it purrs like a vicious puma once again. The ticking is gone. Hooorray!!!!!
THANKS MACSTER!!!!!!!
Last edited by logray; 07-12-2011 at 12:21 AM.
07-11-2011, 07:53 PM
#6
Race Director
Glad it was just a spark plug. I was remiss in not reinforcing you eliminate this possibility or an exhaust leak. When one hears hoof beats think horses not zebras (unless as one person pointed you you live in Africa...).
Still the idea is to elminate what the noise isn't and generally starting with plausible causes that are relatively easy to eliminate is the proper course of action. There's plenty of time to tear the engine down again if it needs it. You just want to be sure it needs it.
Run the engine for a while then change the oil/filter. If you want to make the effort to pour off the engine filter oil into a clean drain pan and admire how much trash the engine has shed into its oil in just some short running time.
Congrats on your engine rebuild!
Sincerely,
Macster.
Still the idea is to elminate what the noise isn't and generally starting with plausible causes that are relatively easy to eliminate is the proper course of action. There's plenty of time to tear the engine down again if it needs it. You just want to be sure it needs it.
Run the engine for a while then change the oil/filter. If you want to make the effort to pour off the engine filter oil into a clean drain pan and admire how much trash the engine has shed into its oil in just some short running time.
Congrats on your engine rebuild!
Sincerely,
Macster.
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07-11-2011, 08:16 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks again for the support.
I can honestly say it is running about 100% better than it was prior to the rebuild.
I have about 400 pictures with comments documenting the entire engine drop, tear down, rebuild, and reinstall - reasons for deciding to do this, etc.
Hopefully I'll have time to finish up the website this week and post a link here.
I can honestly say it is running about 100% better than it was prior to the rebuild.
I have about 400 pictures with comments documenting the entire engine drop, tear down, rebuild, and reinstall - reasons for deciding to do this, etc.
Hopefully I'll have time to finish up the website this week and post a link here.
07-12-2011, 12:18 AM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
75,000 miles clocked on the engine after 12 years of it's life.
A lot of the "plastic" and "rubber" on this car was certainly ready for replacement. Not to mention some of the metal...
I hope to have it out for a drive tomorrow or Wednesday, but still have a lot of suspension components to bolt on.
A lot of the "plastic" and "rubber" on this car was certainly ready for replacement. Not to mention some of the metal...
I hope to have it out for a drive tomorrow or Wednesday, but still have a lot of suspension components to bolt on.
07-12-2011, 02:22 PM
#13
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I think its the 12 years part that takes its toll on the rubber and plastic - all that heat back there in a tight spot.
And to think, they said plastic lasts forever (maybe that was styrofoam)
And to think, they said plastic lasts forever (maybe that was styrofoam)
07-12-2011, 07:38 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I put in new plugs so I had in the back of my mind a bad plug or damaged wire during assembly.
You should have heard the knocking in cylinder #2 before it had the valve job...
BTW here is what is sounds like now after R&R the spark plugs. Lifters and valves ticking away happily under the drone of the fabspeed mufflers.
Bank 1
Bank 2
You should have heard the knocking in cylinder #2 before it had the valve job...
BTW here is what is sounds like now after R&R the spark plugs. Lifters and valves ticking away happily under the drone of the fabspeed mufflers.
Bank 1
Bank 2
Last edited by logray; 07-12-2011 at 08:32 PM.