Leather or PDK? Which would you choose?
12-09-2022, 05:08 PM
#46
Drifting
Given the above, I'll weigh in. If you're a hard core manual guy because you gotta do the left foot dance, most guys like that seem to not be satisfied with PDK. Especially if the car is rarely or never tracked.
As an example of how a three pedal guy can be happy with PDK, consider a case study of me:
All my cars up until the GT4 have been manual, but the reason for my preference isn't so much the left foot wiggle, it's control over engine. As in, I want the engine to be at the RPM I want at all times, I want no unlocked torque converter at any point in the drive, I don't want it shift when I don't command a shift, and I do want it to shift immediately when I command a shift. Sure, I do get some satisfaction out of a very good manual transmission, heel and toe, an exceptional shifter (I now have CAE in 2 of my cars), etc. But the PDK meets the stated control goals, and has the advantage is shifting faster than I ever could... and being smooth when a WOT upshift is commanded with a paddle (and executed in milliseconds) while the car is loaded in turns and I keep both hands on the wheel. I also thoroughly enjoy the power cut cracks when shifts are commanded at anything north of 1/2 throttle. And I love left foot braking. And then on the track, concentrating on everything else as opposed to working around shifting, and shifting in places I'd never dare to with a three pedal. The two things I'm giving up are ease of rolling the car around in the shop when I'm wrenching and the ability to self finnesse the clutch on takeoff (for all sorts of conditions on the street... tho hill assist and takeoff assist and whatever else assist kinda ruin this). No other two pedal (outside of a select few DCTs) has been able to offer this (anything with a torque converter shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as PDK), thus I've always had three pedal... but I'm very happy with PDK.
If you don't meet the above, or have some compelling reason you want PDK, manual is likely the better choice.
As an example of how a three pedal guy can be happy with PDK, consider a case study of me:
All my cars up until the GT4 have been manual, but the reason for my preference isn't so much the left foot wiggle, it's control over engine. As in, I want the engine to be at the RPM I want at all times, I want no unlocked torque converter at any point in the drive, I don't want it shift when I don't command a shift, and I do want it to shift immediately when I command a shift. Sure, I do get some satisfaction out of a very good manual transmission, heel and toe, an exceptional shifter (I now have CAE in 2 of my cars), etc. But the PDK meets the stated control goals, and has the advantage is shifting faster than I ever could... and being smooth when a WOT upshift is commanded with a paddle (and executed in milliseconds) while the car is loaded in turns and I keep both hands on the wheel. I also thoroughly enjoy the power cut cracks when shifts are commanded at anything north of 1/2 throttle. And I love left foot braking. And then on the track, concentrating on everything else as opposed to working around shifting, and shifting in places I'd never dare to with a three pedal. The two things I'm giving up are ease of rolling the car around in the shop when I'm wrenching and the ability to self finnesse the clutch on takeoff (for all sorts of conditions on the street... tho hill assist and takeoff assist and whatever else assist kinda ruin this). No other two pedal (outside of a select few DCTs) has been able to offer this (anything with a torque converter shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as PDK), thus I've always had three pedal... but I'm very happy with PDK.
If you don't meet the above, or have some compelling reason you want PDK, manual is likely the better choice.
I love a good manual as much as the next person. Just like above all my previous cars were manual. But for some reason the PDK just fits this car for me.
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MotoFanatic (12-09-2022)
12-09-2022, 05:35 PM
#47
I used to have conversations with mates, some car guys, some not, that when I buy a Porsche, it will have to be a manual. My argument was I didn't care for 0-100 times, I care about driver engagement. If speed was my number one priority, I'd buy a GTR over a GT4, and have plenty of change left over to mod it.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
To me the car just felt much more responsive, and despite some arguing the gear ratios aren't that much shorter, you can definitely notice it. It's worth noting that people are spending a fair chuck of change to have their manuals re-geared by Deman, and the gear ratios nearly end up being identical - though the PDK also has the additional 7th gear which can be handy if you are doing any highway driving. The PDK has slightly more torque, and has PTV+, while the manual has PTV.
I was also slightly put off the manual by the gear grinding issue, and the amount of people that had have slipping clutches on low mileage cars. I'm certainly not telling you to get a PDK, or that the PDK is better than the manual, but I weighed all these things and decided to finalise my build with PDK.
If possible, I definitely recommend you try test drive a PDK GT4, or even GTS 4.0. If you decide that PDK is not for you, then it's an easy choice to spec the leather. If you love the PDK, but the budget will only allow for leather or PDK, then you will need to decide which one you can live without.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
To me the car just felt much more responsive, and despite some arguing the gear ratios aren't that much shorter, you can definitely notice it. It's worth noting that people are spending a fair chuck of change to have their manuals re-geared by Deman, and the gear ratios nearly end up being identical - though the PDK also has the additional 7th gear which can be handy if you are doing any highway driving. The PDK has slightly more torque, and has PTV+, while the manual has PTV.
I was also slightly put off the manual by the gear grinding issue, and the amount of people that had have slipping clutches on low mileage cars. I'm certainly not telling you to get a PDK, or that the PDK is better than the manual, but I weighed all these things and decided to finalise my build with PDK.
If possible, I definitely recommend you try test drive a PDK GT4, or even GTS 4.0. If you decide that PDK is not for you, then it's an easy choice to spec the leather. If you love the PDK, but the budget will only allow for leather or PDK, then you will need to decide which one you can live without.
Last edited by lilbza; 12-09-2022 at 05:36 PM.
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12-09-2022, 05:41 PM
#48
Do you think you'll show the car more or drive it more?
If you're doing lots of cars/coffee and photos, the leather option is definitely the way to go. It looks great in person, photos, and in the seats. I think PDK is a good option here too because you'll get to say "superior", "fastest shifting", "left foot braking", and other fun buzzwords while sipping a latte with your buddies. Unfortunately I bought all my cars used so a compromise had to be made (no leather
).
If you're drive the car then PDK (or manual) are going to be something that you interact with every time you go anywhere. Whether you're sitting in traffic, getting groceries, flying on track, or screeching at autocross, you'll physically control the car differently.
If you're doing lots of cars/coffee and photos, the leather option is definitely the way to go. It looks great in person, photos, and in the seats. I think PDK is a good option here too because you'll get to say "superior", "fastest shifting", "left foot braking", and other fun buzzwords while sipping a latte with your buddies. Unfortunately I bought all my cars used so a compromise had to be made (no leather
).If you're drive the car then PDK (or manual) are going to be something that you interact with every time you go anywhere. Whether you're sitting in traffic, getting groceries, flying on track, or screeching at autocross, you'll physically control the car differently.
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MotoFanatic (12-09-2022)
12-09-2022, 05:47 PM
#49
If you do test drive a PDK GT4, make sure you're in PDK sport mode, and make sure you have at least a few instances of being decently up it while driving in manual mode. Car warm, more than 5kRPM when shift is commanded, more than half throttle when the shifts are commanded. Also, bang off a few downshifts while braking decently hard.
If you're driving lazy, the PDK will be lazy, even in sport mode.
If you're driving lazy, the PDK will be lazy, even in sport mode.
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12-09-2022, 06:08 PM
#50
Think of it this way…. It might be the last time you can buy a new NA car with a manual transmission. We’ve become more and more lazy these days. It’s not a huge deal in traffic to use your arm and left foot I promise. Also the silver stitched leather is a great deal; it’s a neutral color and will match your brakes just fine..
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MotoFanatic (12-09-2022)
12-09-2022, 06:16 PM
#51
I used to have conversations with mates, some car guys, some not, that when I buy a Porsche, it will have to be a manual. My argument was I didn't care for 0-100 times, I care about driver engagement. If speed was my number one priority, I'd buy a GTR over a GT4, and have plenty of change left over to mod it.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
To me the car just felt much more responsive, and despite some arguing the gear ratios aren't that much shorter, you can definitely notice it. It's worth noting that people are spending a fair chuck of change to have their manuals re-geared by Deman, and the gear ratios nearly end up being identical - though the PDK also has the additional 7th gear which can be handy if you are doing any highway driving. The PDK has slightly more torque, and has PTV+, while the manual has PTV.
I was also slightly put off the manual by the gear grinding issue, and the amount of people that had have slipping clutches on low mileage cars. I'm certainly not telling you to get a PDK, or that the PDK is better than the manual, but I weighed all these things and decided to finalise my build with PDK.
If possible, I definitely recommend you try test drive a PDK GT4, or even GTS 4.0. If you decide that PDK is not for you, then it's an easy choice to spec the leather. If you love the PDK, but the budget will only allow for leather or PDK, then you will need to decide which one you can live without.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
To me the car just felt much more responsive, and despite some arguing the gear ratios aren't that much shorter, you can definitely notice it. It's worth noting that people are spending a fair chuck of change to have their manuals re-geared by Deman, and the gear ratios nearly end up being identical - though the PDK also has the additional 7th gear which can be handy if you are doing any highway driving. The PDK has slightly more torque, and has PTV+, while the manual has PTV.
I was also slightly put off the manual by the gear grinding issue, and the amount of people that had have slipping clutches on low mileage cars. I'm certainly not telling you to get a PDK, or that the PDK is better than the manual, but I weighed all these things and decided to finalise my build with PDK.
If possible, I definitely recommend you try test drive a PDK GT4, or even GTS 4.0. If you decide that PDK is not for you, then it's an easy choice to spec the leather. If you love the PDK, but the budget will only allow for leather or PDK, then you will need to decide which one you can live without.
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lilbza (12-09-2022)
12-09-2022, 06:17 PM
#52
Think of it this way…. It might be the last time you can buy a new NA car with a manual transmission. We’ve become more and more lazy these days. It’s not a huge deal in traffic to use your arm and left foot I promise. Also the silver stitched leather is a great deal; it’s a neutral color and will match your brakes just fine..
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12-09-2022, 06:42 PM
#53
I think the incorrectly implied message is that people think a manual is slow, so that’s why you get a PDK. Other than launch control, you’re not gong to notice an acceleration difference. I think some people complain about long gearing in the GT4/GTS4.0 but I suspect when you put one on the track, you’re not shifting so much and saving time that way.
For me personally, when I drive a manual, I'm not trying to shift as fast as Walter Rohrl, nor could I if I tried. So for me, the 0.5 second delta 0-100 time of the GT4 in PDK versus Manual, is probably actually more than that. I do understand that might sound a bit contradictory given I mentioned above that I don't care for 0-100 times, but it was more to highlight the fact that to ME, the PDK car did feel much quicker, and that's probably more a representation of my driving skills than anything else.
In summary, I was surprised to find that the PDK excited me as much as it did. I was so hell bent that my GT4 would be a manual. I can't say whether I regret that decision yet, but time will tell once I have the car in my hands for an extended period of time.
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MotoFanatic (12-09-2022)
12-09-2022, 07:02 PM
#54
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I think the incorrectly implied message is that people think a manual is slow, so that’s why you get a PDK. Other than launch control, you’re not gong to notice an acceleration difference. I think some people complain about long gearing in the GT4/GTS4.0 but I suspect when you put one on the track, you’re not shifting so much and saving time that way.
You will feel the difference in gearing since it’s a 10% shorter gear set. Gear - gear the PDK will accelerate quicker.
PDK cars also get no lift shift up/down and better LSD lock values.
Whether any of that trumps a desire for a manual, doubtful for most. Like Enduro this car was preceded by a long list of manuals and I was “one of those guys”…for me, I like the way it suits the overall package.
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MotoFanatic (12-09-2022)
12-09-2022, 07:58 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
True...or they'll just screw it up beyond the point of repair....
This is exactly what I keep reading/hearing which is why I'm debating which is better for me.
I didn't realize there was an issue. I assumed these transmissions were bulletproof. I'm sure those cases are in the minority but will have to look into it some more.
Thank you for the write up. I can't say I'm a "core manual guy" but I do miss it since I sold my CS a little while ago. Plus I think it would be cool to pass the skill on to my kids.
Just when I thought I had it figured out.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
Given the above, I'll weigh in. If you're a hard core manual guy because you gotta do the left foot dance, most guys like that seem to not be satisfied with PDK. Especially if the car is rarely or never tracked.
As an example of how a three pedal guy can be happy with PDK, consider a case study of me:
All my cars up until the GT4 have been manual, but the reason for my preference isn't so much the left foot wiggle, it's control over engine. As in, I want the engine to be at the RPM I want at all times, I want no unlocked torque converter at any point in the drive, I don't want it shift when I don't command a shift, and I do want it to shift immediately when I command a shift. Sure, I do get some satisfaction out of a very good manual transmission, heel and toe, an exceptional shifter (I now have CAE in 2 of my cars), etc. But the PDK meets the stated control goals, and has the advantage is shifting faster than I ever could... and being smooth when a WOT upshift is commanded with a paddle (and executed in milliseconds) while the car is loaded in turns and I keep both hands on the wheel. I also thoroughly enjoy the power cut cracks when shifts are commanded at anything north of 1/2 throttle. And I love left foot braking. And then on the track, concentrating on everything else as opposed to working around shifting, and shifting in places I'd never dare to with a three pedal. The two things I'm giving up are ease of rolling the car around in the shop when I'm wrenching and the ability to self finnesse the clutch on takeoff (for all sorts of conditions on the street... tho hill assist and takeoff assist and whatever else assist kinda ruin this). No other two pedal (outside of a select few DCTs) has been able to offer this (anything with a torque converter shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as PDK), thus I've always had three pedal... but I'm very happy with PDK.
As an example of how a three pedal guy can be happy with PDK, consider a case study of me:
All my cars up until the GT4 have been manual, but the reason for my preference isn't so much the left foot wiggle, it's control over engine. As in, I want the engine to be at the RPM I want at all times, I want no unlocked torque converter at any point in the drive, I don't want it shift when I don't command a shift, and I do want it to shift immediately when I command a shift. Sure, I do get some satisfaction out of a very good manual transmission, heel and toe, an exceptional shifter (I now have CAE in 2 of my cars), etc. But the PDK meets the stated control goals, and has the advantage is shifting faster than I ever could... and being smooth when a WOT upshift is commanded with a paddle (and executed in milliseconds) while the car is loaded in turns and I keep both hands on the wheel. I also thoroughly enjoy the power cut cracks when shifts are commanded at anything north of 1/2 throttle. And I love left foot braking. And then on the track, concentrating on everything else as opposed to working around shifting, and shifting in places I'd never dare to with a three pedal. The two things I'm giving up are ease of rolling the car around in the shop when I'm wrenching and the ability to self finnesse the clutch on takeoff (for all sorts of conditions on the street... tho hill assist and takeoff assist and whatever else assist kinda ruin this). No other two pedal (outside of a select few DCTs) has been able to offer this (anything with a torque converter shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as PDK), thus I've always had three pedal... but I'm very happy with PDK.
Just when I thought I had it figured out.
12-09-2022, 09:39 PM
#56
Drifting
I used to have conversations with mates, some car guys, some not, that when I buy a Porsche, it will have to be a manual. My argument was I didn't care for 0-100 times, I care about driver engagement. If speed was my number one priority, I'd buy a GTR over a GT4, and have plenty of change left over to mod it.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
To me the car just felt much more responsive, and despite some arguing the gear ratios aren't that much shorter, you can definitely notice it. It's worth noting that people are spending a fair chuck of change to have their manuals re-geared by Deman, and the gear ratios nearly end up being identical - though the PDK also has the additional 7th gear which can be handy if you are doing any highway driving. The PDK has slightly more torque, and has PTV+, while the manual has PTV.
I was also slightly put off the manual by the gear grinding issue, and the amount of people that had have slipping clutches on low mileage cars. I'm certainly not telling you to get a PDK, or that the PDK is better than the manual, but I weighed all these things and decided to finalise my build with PDK.
If possible, I definitely recommend you try test drive a PDK GT4, or even GTS 4.0. If you decide that PDK is not for you, then it's an easy choice to spec the leather. If you love the PDK, but the budget will only allow for leather or PDK, then you will need to decide which one you can live without.
I originally spec'd my GT4 with a manual, but when I got to have a drive of a PDK GTS 4.0 that was on the showroom floor, the MUST have manual in me was no more. I didn't instantly change my mind, but the PDK was that good, that it was enough to make me ponder my decision. I still found plenty of engagement using the PDK shifter in manual mode, and also the paddles were a bit of fun as well.
To me the car just felt much more responsive, and despite some arguing the gear ratios aren't that much shorter, you can definitely notice it. It's worth noting that people are spending a fair chuck of change to have their manuals re-geared by Deman, and the gear ratios nearly end up being identical - though the PDK also has the additional 7th gear which can be handy if you are doing any highway driving. The PDK has slightly more torque, and has PTV+, while the manual has PTV.
I was also slightly put off the manual by the gear grinding issue, and the amount of people that had have slipping clutches on low mileage cars. I'm certainly not telling you to get a PDK, or that the PDK is better than the manual, but I weighed all these things and decided to finalise my build with PDK.
If possible, I definitely recommend you try test drive a PDK GT4, or even GTS 4.0. If you decide that PDK is not for you, then it's an easy choice to spec the leather. If you love the PDK, but the budget will only allow for leather or PDK, then you will need to decide which one you can live without.
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12-09-2022, 09:43 PM
#57
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The counter to your PDK thoughts are potentially time may change your opinion. I went through something almost identical with dual clutches with audi/vw's boxes and then BMW in the late 2000s, but after i dunno, a couple years, I went full circle back to demanding a manual in my sports cars. The 'this is the future of driving' experience wore off.
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12-10-2022, 03:33 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I have to say, given what has been reported here, I'm starting to gravitate towards PDK. Even though the chances of this happening is few and far between, it's something that will sit in the back of my mind. This kind of thing reminds me of the IMS bearing issue with the first gen Caymans which I was lucky to dodge.
Unfortunately, in order for me to fit the PDK into my budget, I will probably forgo the red stitching and some secondary options.
Unfortunately, in order for me to fit the PDK into my budget, I will probably forgo the red stitching and some secondary options.
12-10-2022, 04:00 PM
#59
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have to say, given what has been reported here, I'm starting to gravitate towards PDK. Even though the chances of this happening is few and far between, it's something that will sit in the back of my mind. This kind of thing reminds me of the IMS bearing issue with the first gen Caymans which I was lucky to dodge.
Unfortunately, in order for me to fit the PDK into my budget, I will probably forgo the red stitching and some secondary options.
Unfortunately, in order for me to fit the PDK into my budget, I will probably forgo the red stitching and some secondary options.
IMHO keep the manual and get the options you want!
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12-10-2022, 04:04 PM
#60
Agreed with @Westcoast , not in the same league as an IMS bearing, and wouldn't affect my decision a great deal if I were leaning manual.
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