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Okay. So PPF didn't protect your original bumper from getting damaged from road debris and needing replacement for $3,500. That's all I wanted to know. Thank you.
The bumper was damaged by debris the size of a cat. Not rock chips. And there was no paint damage from said impact. The debris I hit broke the mesh grill in the bumper and snapped a few of the mounting tabs that hold the splitter to the bumper. The paint itself was not damaged and that's what PPF's job is. You're misconstruing the issue. And I think your'e doing it intentionally because I doubt you're an idiot. Saying PPF isn't worth it because you can just repaint the car is inane. And you arguing that because my bumper had PPF when it was hit by a large object and the PPF didn't protect the mesh grill (which isn't wrapped) or prevent mounting tabs from breaking, is also utterly inane.
The moral of my story wasn't about the original bumper. It was that AFTER replacement, I didn't wrap it with PPF and it became so chewed up from rocks and insects that I had to have it repainted. And the cost of repainting just the bumper is 50% the cost of wrapping the entire car with PPF. You should be able to connect the dots here...
Last edited by FourT6and2; 09-21-2022 at 08:56 PM.
Meh, let's see some real world use. Taken last week, this is standard fare in Tokyo averaging $10K USD per job for the whole car with such typical outcomes. You guys should complain less.
Lazy hand cut around the emblem instead of removing the emblem, applying PPF then re-attaching the emblem. The middle of the 4 is not even filled with PPF excess.
Edges lifting, dirt trapped continually helping the PPF lift.
Air bubble, dust bubble, edges lifting.
Poor alignment, lifting and just simply trapping dirt.
The bumper was damaged by debris the size of a cat. Not rock chips. And there was no paint damage from said impact. The debris I hit broke the mesh grill in the bumper and snapped a few of the mounting tabs that hold the splitter to the bumper. The paint itself was not damaged and that's what PPF's job is. You're misconstruing the issue. And I think your'e doing it intentionally because I doubt you're an idiot. Saying PPF isn't worth it because you can just repaint the car is inane. And you arguing that because my bumper had PPF when it was hit by a large object and the PPF didn't protect the mesh grill (which isn't wrapped) or prevent mounting tabs from breaking, is also utterly inane.
The moral of my story wasn't about the original bumper. It was that AFTER replacement, I didn't wrap it with PPF and it became so chewed up from rocks and insects that I had to have it repainted. And the cost of repainting just the bumper is 50% the cost of wrapping the entire car with PPF. You should be able to connect the dots here...
Up to now, your posts in this thread were rather vague and very light on details. It was like pulling teeth to get relevant information.
That's the main problem with these PPF threads, they're typically very light on the details and very heavy on the hyperbole.
You stated "that it makes sense to get PPF and the cost of install is nothing compared to the cost of re-painting a car as suggested." This type of straw man argument is typical in these PPF threads too. Personally, I can't think of one friend of mine who would get a car repainted because of rock chips, dings, or other imperfections that are just normal aspects of owning and using things. It's possible that my next door neighbor would obsess about slight imperfections, but he's an outlier (who likes to own nice cars, and talk about them, and keep them under covers in his garages, and occasionally look at them, and dust them off, and rarely drive them).
Based on your posts in this thread, you probably spent somewhere between $8,000 to $12,000 PPFing your entire car, and you had to spend an additional $3,500 replacing your PPF'd plastic bumper that was damaged from road debris, but you're still grateful for the protection that PPF provides…
It also must be noted that the paint formulations, flow properties, application processes, cure processes and adhesion chemistry for flexible plastic surfaces are all different than the paint that’s applied to hard metal surfaces. This results in the paint on metal surfaces being MUCH more durable than the paint on plastic surfaces. Therefore, hypothetically projecting the paint damage from your car's un-PPF'd plastic bumper to the rest of your car, is being intellectually dishonest with yourself (and others).
IMO, you've made a decent argument for PPFing the soft plastic bits on the front of cars, but that's it.
Up to now, your posts in this thread were rather vague and very light on details. It was like pulling teeth to get relevant information.
That's the main problem with these PPF threads, they're typically very light on the details and very heavy on the hyperbole.
You stated "that it makes sense to get PPF and the cost of install is nothing compared to the cost of re-painting a car as suggested." This type of straw man argument is typical in these PPF threads too. Personally, I can't think of one friend of mine who would get a car repainted because of rock chips, dings, or other imperfections that are just normal aspects of owning and using things. It's possible that my next door neighbor would obsess about slight imperfections, but he's an outlier (who likes to own nice cars, and talk about them, and keep them under covers in his garages, and occasionally look at them, and dust them off, and rarely drive them).
Based on your posts in this thread, you probably spent somewhere between $8,000 to $12,000 PPFing your entire car, and you had to spend an additional $3,500 replacing your PPF'd plastic bumper that was damaged from road debris, but you're still grateful for the protection that PPF provides…
It also must be noted that the paint formulations, flow properties, application processes, cure processes and adhesion chemistry for flexible plastic surfaces are all different than the paint that’s applied to hard metal surfaces. This results in the paint on metal surfaces being MUCH more durable than the paint on plastic surfaces. Therefore, hypothetically projecting the paint damage from your car's un-PPF'd plastic bumper to the rest of your car, is being intellectually dishonest with yourself (and others).
IMO, you've made a decent argument for PPFing the soft plastic bits on the front of cars, but that's it.
I have to agree- the argument that you're saving $30k by spending $10k doesn't really stack up, because how many people actually have repainted their entire cars? And if so, surely not from things that would have been prevented by PPF... plus from what I can tell from FourT6and2's avatar we're talking a GT3RS, which is another class of car anyway, and also from what I can tell a pretty track-focused use case.
It is indeed interesting to see how some people are influenced very differently by the same stimulus. I see some folks have claimed that this thread has convinced them to get full car PPF, for me it has definitely convinced me NOT to. There's just not enough justification for doubling the price over a solid forward-facing film application to cover the whole car. I swear at this point it has just become about bragging rights, and minimal valid arguments for true value in covering the doors, roof, and trunk areas...
But I do see the value in PPF for its intended purpose, and I have a scenario where I've seen the work come out of the shop my dealer subs to at a reasonable price for forward-facing areas to include the a-pillars and rear rockers. That's almost surely the way I go for my 718...
While at the same time will also do the full car for my wife's Macan- but not for protection. I'd skip it altogether on the Macan, as the two I've had so far and put over 60k combined miles on have shown no real cause for concern from road debris. She wants a matte finish, so we're doing XPEL Stealth... but that's another conversation entirely about what we spend because something looks/sounds/feels cool, and not some make-believe that if I don't do it the salt/sand bogeyman will come and ruin my car.
Both Outlaw 06 and dnimi123 claimed it was better to use touch up paint instead of getting PPF. I think that's silly for anything other than a handful of tiny rock chips. My car is a GT3RS, so maybe a different use case. But most of the car's surfaces will get destroyed in no time without PPF. Bumper is plastic. Hood is carbon. Fenders are carbon. Roof is carbon. Wing is carbon. The only metal surfaces are doors and rear quarters.
I'm only here because OP directed me to this thread. PPF can and will protect against other types of damage as well (insects, bird crap, keying, minor bumps from other cars, etc.). Someone put a dent in my door recently. PPF prevented paint damage and dent was easily pulled for $200. Without PPF the entire door would have needed repaint, and quarter panel and fender would have needed blending. That's weeks without the car and a lot more than $200.
My bumper didn't have a few rock chips. Every square inch was peppered. Looked like it was hit by rock salt out of a shotgun. Without PPF the rockers, quarter panels, fenders, and front hood are also toast in a short time. A touch up pen would have been useless and quite silly to attempt. A lot of people do just wrap a few panes here or there. Depends on your type of driving.
Last edited by FourT6and2; 09-22-2022 at 12:15 PM.
PPF is overpriced because of supply/demand and monopolistic practices of Xpel. They control the local markets and market heavily. The charge arm & leg of their dealers to use their film and access their database of patterns. There is insufficient competition especially for full car patterns. I know a guy who is excellent (Paint Protection Plus in Shewsbury, MA), but avoids bulk wrap due to cost/effort and does not have access to full car patterns, usually has everything for the front clip/rockers. Uses Suntek (which is a great film, I think looks better than Xpel).
Other than that in my area apparently one company (Automotive Elegance) controls a good chunk of the market around Boston. So when you shop around, you don't find much of a price difference, because all various places will have install done by the same guys. You are shopping for add-ons like paint prep before wrap or coating after.
I keep my cars for long time and hate "road rash" with passion and have no desire to spend time "touching up". At a minimum I tend to wrap the front sans plastic parts, especially for cars that are no longer pristine (bought used). Otherwise I do full front clip. For expensive cars, like my new BGTS4.0 I elected for a full car wrap. Same for my off road cars. I will rather have film pinstriped than paint.
I have to agree- the argument that you're saving $30k by spending $10k doesn't really stack up, because how many people actually have repainted their entire cars? And if so, surely not from things that would have been prevented by PPF... plus from what I can tell from FourT6and2's avatar we're talking a GT3RS, which is another class of car anyway, and also from what I can tell a pretty track-focused use case.
It is indeed interesting to see how some people are influenced very differently by the same stimulus. I see some folks have claimed that this thread has convinced them to get full car PPF, for me it has definitely convinced me NOT to. There's just not enough justification for doubling the price over a solid forward-facing film application to cover the whole car. I swear at this point it has just become about bragging rights, and minimal valid arguments for true value in covering the doors, roof, and trunk areas...
But I do see the value in PPF for its intended purpose, and I have a scenario where I've seen the work come out of the shop my dealer subs to at a reasonable price for forward-facing areas to include the a-pillars and rear rockers. That's almost surely the way I go for my 718...
While at the same time will also do the full car for my wife's Macan- but not for protection. I'd skip it altogether on the Macan, as the two I've had so far and put over 60k combined miles on have shown no real cause for concern from road debris. She wants a matte finish, so we're doing XPEL Stealth... but that's another conversation entirely about what we spend because something looks/sounds/feels cool, and not some make-believe that if I don't do it the salt/sand bogeyman will come and ruin my car.
You HAVE to consider location. I don't know where you live but in the Bay Area, the roads are bad enough that without some sort of protection, the car looks terrible within a few years. I have many friends who didn't get PPF on their cars and you can see the white from the plastic in the bumper. And these aren't old cars too, these are only a few years old.
Not everyone needs to get full body PPF. For many people its not worth it. But when you are driving along and you get a rock chip on your trunk because you got stuck behind a cement mixing truck, then yeah its worth getting PPF everywhere. If you live in the middle of the US its actually hard to imagine the kind of traffic that California has. Its a weird kind of traffic because everyone is going 50MPH but its almost bumper to bumper. That's where most of the paint chipping comes from in our area. Plus our roads are some of the worst in the US as we have some of the highest concentration of cars (if not the highest).
No-one is forcing you to PPF your entire car. Do what you believe will work for you. Just the rest of us are giving our own experience (based on our location) why we think full PPF is a must.
You HAVE to consider location. I don't know where you live but in the Bay Area, the roads are bad enough that without some sort of protection, the car looks terrible within a few years. I have many friends who didn't get PPF on their cars and you can see the white from the plastic in the bumper. And these aren't old cars too, these are only a few years old.
Not everyone needs to get full body PPF. For many people its not worth it. But when you are driving along and you get a rock chip on your trunk because you got stuck behind a cement mixing truck, then yeah its worth getting PPF everywhere. If you live in the middle of the US its actually hard to imagine the kind of traffic that California has. Its a weird kind of traffic because everyone is going 50MPH but its almost bumper to bumper. That's where most of the paint chipping comes from in our area. Plus our roads are some of the worst in the US as we have some of the highest concentration of cars (if not the highest).
No-one is forcing you to PPF your entire car. Do what you believe will work for you. Just the rest of us are giving our own experience (based on our location) why we think full PPF is a must.
Exactly. OP is in Bay Area. I am in Bay Area. You are in Bay Area. Connecticut? I grew up there (Cromwell). It doesn't compare. Around here, it's like there's an invisible fairy flying around, dropping rocks on cars for fun. I've gone through four windshields in three years on my RS. And two in one year on my 4Runner. I'm on my second bumper on my RS, two on my 4Runner. Just from normal driving on the street. Oh and I've had to replace both headlights on my RS as well. My first few months of owning the thing, a car in front of me on highway dipped a wheel into the shoulder and kicked up some rocks that shattered both headlights. Guess what... the carbon fiber hood and bumper were saved because of PPF.
Last year a cement truck that was 3 lanes over and about 8 car lengths in front of my buddy dropped some dried cement from that tube/chute on highway. It hit the ground and disintegrated, sending bits of cement into every car behind it. Including my friend's. No PPF. $28,000 in paint damage.
Last edited by FourT6and2; 09-22-2022 at 01:11 PM.
Yeah the road conditions in the Bay Area are so extreme I think it just doesn't really register for people who don't live here. My Supra needed a windshield replacement within 3 months of ownership. My girlfriends GR86 needed a windshield replacement within 5 months of ownership. Her old GTI needed a rear bumper re-paint within 1 year of ownership because someone decided to take a right turn and show off their exhaust and kicked up rocks as he/she drive by and put a few holes into the rear bumper.
I vinyl wrapped my M2 Competition which I'm thankful I did because if I didn't, the hood would have been peppered with holes. When I went to unwrap the car, I could see everywhere the vinyl had protected the paint.
Wow, just got back from vacation and did not expect this to turn into a pro/anti PPF debate!
I'll just add that I was a big PPF doubter, in fact I had this install done after 5k miles. I was surprised at how many tiny rock chips were already on the car. I was lucky not to pick up any major ones, probably because I only drive this car for fun so can avoid traffic and don't tailgate. I think it would be a lot worse if I was commuting or tracking the car. PPF definitely has reduced my anxiety about this, although I'm still on the fence about whether the cost is worth it.
To bring the thread back on topic, it seems like the general consensus is that this is a very average install and it is reasonable to expect better. For the price and not disassembling the car, I could live with the small gaps on the door trim and door handles but I think the gaps on front bumper and antenna are not acceptable. And I'd like more coverage on rear bumper as well. Hopefully I will be able to reach a resolution with the installer. I don't think this work is up to his usual standard (even though he says it is).
I always advise clients to give the business an opportunity to resolve things as we all have off days
with that said, they may be honest and telling you the truth…that may be the best THEY can do, and if that’s the case, I would want my money back, and they can remove everything
I’d let them know that the work that’s currently on your vehicle isn’t up to your standards…and I forget what you paid, but it may well be in line with the price point
When I hear how much people pay for ppf and it’s “perfect”, I sometimes cringe because I know what it costs and there’s honestly not enough $$$ in the deal for the caliber of cars like a Porsche, or corners are being cut…literally and figuratively …these cars require truly a skilled professional who’s devoted to the craft and smart business sense to be around many years from now to service the client/car
as with anything, cost of doing business has gone up for all of us in this industry…labor, materials, rent, EVERYTHING costs more and I personally am still having a hard time every time I get my Amex bill with the vendor charges 😂😂
If you’d like, call me Monday and I’ll help guide you through this…there’s always a solution, just gotta keep a cool head and positive vibes
but that installation is not something I’d want for my Porsche, but I understand how work like that gets out there, but that’s a whole other topic for another thread…let’s try and make lemonade here if possible 💪🤙
Moe, thank you for the generous offer to help with this. I'll give you a call today or tomorrow.
It also must be noted that the paint formulations, flow properties, application processes, cure processes and adhesion chemistry for flexible plastic surfaces are all different than the paint that’s applied to hard metal surfaces. This results in the paint on metal surfaces being MUCH more durable than the paint on plastic surfaces. Therefore, hypothetically projecting the paint damage from your car's un-PPF'd plastic bumper to the rest of your car, is being intellectually dishonest with yourself (and others).
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That is not true in my experience. The differences in processes and durability in coatings in regards to materials sprayed over are very slight. Throw high speed debris at any coating and it's going to take some type of damage. You might have numerically less chips on very hard paint on an A pillar vs a floppy bumper with a plasticizer additive but then you're going to chip bigger. Scratches might be slightly more minor, but it's still scratching. etc
Yeah the road conditions in the Bay Area are so extreme I think it just doesn't really register for people who don't live here. My Supra needed a windshield replacement within 3 months of ownership. My girlfriends GR86 needed a windshield replacement within 5 months of ownership. Her old GTI needed a rear bumper re-paint within 1 year of ownership because someone decided to take a right turn and show off their exhaust and kicked up rocks as he/she drive by and put a few holes into the rear bumper.
I vinyl wrapped my M2 Competition which I'm thankful I did because if I didn't, the hood would have been peppered with holes. When I went to unwrap the car, I could see everywhere the vinyl had protected the paint.
I see a theme with the Bay Area, sure. But it's not like California is the only place with bad roads and traffic.
I'm in the DC metro area, but I don't commute every day. In fact since the pandemic it's been rare that I've been in the city. But I do make it out there occasionally.
I suppose I can see where you're going; the worst case of debris damage to a car that I've had was a 2015 STI. Now that I think about it I was probably on 495 a lot back then, and that thing's bumper was ruinous and depressed me every time I washed it. Only had 8k miles on it when I traded it in. But Subaru paint is notoriously soft and also scratches and swirls easier too...
Anyway, I've already come to the conclusion that I'm getting PPF, but not the whole car. I still don't get the whole car thing, but it's not my money you guys are spending.
Originally Posted by bob78h
Wow, just got back from vacation and did not expect this to turn into a pro/anti PPF debate!
One of many topics that will spark a 10 page debate in a matter of hours. Post something about bucket seats, carbon brakes, Burmester, the list goes on.
Last edited by manifold danger; 09-22-2022 at 04:33 PM.
I see a theme with the Bay Area, sure. But it's not like California is the only place with bad roads and traffic.
I'm in the DC metro area, but I don't commute every day. In fact since the pandemic it's been rare that I've been in the city. But I do make it out there occasionally.
I suppose I can see where you're going; the worst case of debris damage to a car that I've had was a 2015 STI. Now that I think about it I was probably on 495 a lot back then, and that thing's bumper was ruinous and depressed me every time I washed it. Only had 8k miles on it when I traded it in.
Anyway, I've already come to the conclusion that I'm getting PPF, but not the whole car. I still don't get the whole car thing, but it's not my money you guys are spending.
One of many topics that will spark a 10 page debate in a matter of hours. Post something about bucket seats, carbon brakes, Burmester, the list goes on.
Honestly for me doing the whole car is more to appease my own OCD more than anything. Originally I was going to just do full front plus rockers and sides. Then then I was thinking that I'd notice the difference between panels that are PPF'd versus panels that arent and then thinking about the unwrapped panels suffering from swirls and scratches...it just nicked me in the worst way. So I'm getting the full car wrapped just so I have consistency across the whole car.
09-21-2022, 08:42 PM
