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I've ridden 10's of thousands of miles on motorcycles and driven/raced 10's of thousands of miles on racetracks over the past almost 50 years. Frankly, I wouldn't use a motorsports helmet while riding a motorcycle nor would I use a motorcycle helmet while in a car on a racetrack... regardless on what was "allowed" by the sanctioning organization or the venue (just because a state allows someone to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, doesn't mean a person should imo). I understand all too well, the risks associated with using the wrong equipment in the wrong situation. Hell, even with the correct equipment, the unthinkable can and does happen. I lost a dear friend and co-driver in one such incident... and he was a far better driver than any of us here, myself included. But this is just my opinion, so take it for what its worth.
I guess I should have said PCA specific for HPDE; autox yes.
Its region dependent.
From the min stds
Clothing and Helmet
All car occupants must wear a Snell approved helmet, which has the current available Snell rating or the one previous Snell rating. Other helmets are acceptable if they are approved for PCA Club Racing. Footwear must be enclosed, non-slip, with a relatively smooth sole. Hiking type deep lugged soles are not acceptable.
All car occupants must wear a Snell approved helmet, which has the current available Snell rating or the one previous Snell rating. Other helmets are acceptable if they are approved for PCA Club Racing. Footwear must be enclosed, non-slip, with a relatively smooth sole. Hiking type deep lugged soles are not acceptable.
Yes, I think we’re saying the same thing.
Currently Snell Approved SA2015 and above. I asked our track chair specifically this…no M approved is what he said.
I run full-face on my track days and would encourage others to do so as well as long as you are in a windows-down or top-down scenario. The organizations I run with require both windows down, so it's been an easy choice.
I've known folks have had had bugs fly in and hit them in the eye or face during a session which can be massively distracting to say the least. This isn't even to imagine getting pelted by track rubber, debris, or little pebbles. All of which fly different directions during track days.
If it's a closed-cockpit, windows up scenario for you though, then I'm sure open face is just fine.
I've ridden 10's of thousands of miles on motorcycles and driven/raced 10's of thousands of miles on racetracks over the past almost 50 years. Frankly, I wouldn't use a motorsports helmet while riding a motorcycle nor would I use a motorcycle helmet while in a car on a racetrack... regardless on what was "allowed" by the sanctioning organization or the venue (just because a state allows someone to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, doesn't mean a person should imo). I understand all too well, the risks associated with using the wrong equipment in the wrong situation. Hell, even with the correct equipment, the unthinkable can and does happen. I lost a dear friend and co-driver in one such incident... and he was a far better driver than any of us here, myself included. But this is just my opinion, so take it for what its worth.
All you’re really saying is your level of safety tolerance is what you deem the correct amount. There will be someone else who is even more extreme who thinks what you're doing isn't safe enough and you're dropping the ball.
And is it really the wrong equipment? Or is that just your opinion… like if you have a glance at the stats for the types of injuries occur at SCCA autocrosses and the number of them all over north america I think you'd see you're not increasing your safety by any measurable means running a SA helmet over a M one. And actually SA helmets may be responsible for causing injuries so it's potentially possible running a M helmet is safer at autocrosses (a significant portion of injuries are pedestian injuries which may be a result of reduced visibility from wearing a helmet. SA helmets provide worse visibility usually, ergo M helmets may be better for safety in that regard. Safety is not black and white or like a videogame where you get +10 to safety for equiping a SA helmet; there are trade offs).
^^^^ Don’t know what you’re trying to say in above, but there are open and closed face Snell Auto SA2020 and Mototcycle M2020 rated helmets.
You said 'a M helmet would fail tech at most events', but it would actually pass at most events. You said '2015 is required by most organizations too', but that is also not true. Lots of events allow 2005 ratings and very few require 2015s.
He said a M helmet is the wrong equipment and eluded to it being dangerous to use one in a car. I'd counter that there are no stats to back that up, it is classified as the right equipment for autocross and HPDEs, and a M helmet might actually be safer for the event at an autocross because a significant amount of their injuries are a result of car on pedestrian incidents and M helmets often have better visibility. At HPDE's it likely offers no measurable disadvantage as burning is not a risk at HPDEs and multiple impacts are very low risk.
You said 'a M helmet would fail tech at most events', but it would actually pass at most events. You said '2015 is required by most organizations too', but that is also not true. Lots of events allow 2005 ratings and very few require 2015s.
He said a M helmet is the wrong equipment and eluded to it being dangerous to use one in a car. I'd counter that there are no stats to back that up, it is classified as the right equipment for autocross and HPDEs, and a M helmet might actually be safer for the event at an autocross because a significant amount of their injuries are a result of car on pedestrian incidents and M helmets often have better visibility. At HPDE's it likely offers no measurable disadvantage as burning is not a risk at HPDEs and multiple impacts are very low risk.
Don’t know why you’re pushing outdated M Snell rated helmets.
OP asked about running with his PCA Region. Here is the current PCA National guidance.
That currently means a Snell 2015 or 2020 rating. 2010 ratings have aged out.
Here is a good link to a PCA region equipment guidance. They do not allow M rated helmets, same as many regions and in some cases tracks.
All you’re really saying is your level of safety tolerance is what you deem the correct amount. There will be someone else who is even more extreme who thinks what you're doing isn't safe enough and you're dropping the ball.
And is it really the wrong equipment? Or is that just your opinion… like if you have a glance at the stats for the types of injuries occur at SCCA autocrosses and the number of them all over north america I think you'd see you're not increasing your safety by any measurable means running a SA helmet over a M one. And actually SA helmets may be responsible for causing injuries so it's potentially possible running a M helmet is safer at autocrosses (a significant portion of injuries are pedestian injuries which may be a result of reduced visibility from wearing a helmet. SA helmets provide worse visibility usually, ergo M helmets may be better for safety in that regard. Safety is not black and white or like a videogame where you get +10 to safety for equiping a SA helmet; there are trade offs).
You are giving really bad advice. Not sure if you are just in a contrary mood, but please stop.
OP is looking for helmet guidance to run with PCA ax and hpde…full face SA2020 is the best.
Is your advice to buy a used M2005?
He mentioned he did lapping before and mentioned autocross. If he has a M2010 or better helmet from when he did lapping and wants to go autocrossing with PCA PNW he doesn't need to buy a helmet. Just because he has a 100g car doesn't mean he has 5g to drop on a $$$ helmet. If he does, great, he should buy a hans too, but if he's casual and just wants to try it out without dumping thousands, PCA PNW says M is fine for autocross.
So does my region which is his next closest region.Clothing (Helmet, Shoes, etc.):
All vehicle occupants while on course must wear an approved helmet. Helmets built to Snell Foundation standards or other standards such as FIA 8860, SFI 31.1 and BS6658- 85 Type A-FR are approved for use. Approved helmets must be manufactured to the current rating or the two most recent SA, M or K Snell ratings. For example, if the current Snell SA standard is SA2020, helmets meeting SA2020, SA2015 and SA2010 are allowed. Also, any helmet approved for PCA Club Racing is permitted. Footwear must be non-slip and NOT be open-toe or have heavy-duty soles such as those found on hiking shoes or work boots.
You posted a link to an event last year. PCA no longer allows 2010 certs.
Why do you keep pushing M certs; it’s not good or safe advice.
Motorcycle riders are more prone to crashing and sliding, so those helmets are tested for that kind of impact. Whereas an auto may experience hits to the head upon impact and rollovers, but no sliding.
SA 2015 and above is good for any event, track, organization, etc
This thread is about giving advice to the OP who is looking to buy a helmet, an M2010 isn’t relevant.
All you’re really saying is your level of safety tolerance is what you deem the correct amount. There will be someone else who is even more extreme who thinks what you're doing isn't safe enough and you're dropping the ball.
And is it really the wrong equipment? Or is that just your opinion… like if you have a glance at the stats for the types of injuries occur at SCCA autocrosses and the number of them all over north america I think you'd see you're not increasing your safety by any measurable means running a SA helmet over a M one. And actually SA helmets may be responsible for causing injuries so it's potentially possible running a M helmet is safer at autocrosses (a significant portion of injuries are pedestian injuries which may be a result of reduced visibility from wearing a helmet. SA helmets provide worse visibility usually, ergo M helmets may be better for safety in that regard. Safety is not black and white or like a videogame where you get +10 to safety for equiping a SA helmet; there are trade offs).
As I stated in my previous post "this is just my opinion...", however, it comes from almost a half-century of experience. As for my "level of safety tolerance", I would dare say that it is pretty high. Maybe not as high as most Youtube content provides or Darwin Award winners, but I grew up and began racing at a time when chances of being killed in a racing incident were fairly high. In fact, a number of my father's friends including Harry Schell and Alfonso DePortago were killed while racing. As for me, my avatar is of meg going through the speed trap at Daytona in my 935 at 218mph back in the day. I also competitively raced vintage cars from the '50s and '60s that were known for being deadly. Below is a picture of me racing my old Cooper Monaco at 140+mph during a sub one-minute lap at Lime Rock.
With all that said, the safety equipment a person chooses to use is about feeling as comfortable in a car so they can drive at their peak level of performance. By the mere fact that we are all participating in this forum would indicate that we have reached a high level of success in our chosen professions. I would venture to say that we didn't arrive here by adhering to a view that minimum standards are the ceiling. I view that the requirements set for safety at an event are just that, "minimum acceptable standards" and are a starting point for your safety and the safety of others with whom you share the car and/or the track. Once again just my personal opinion. I'll now relinquish my soapbox.
03-22-2022 | 05:37 PM
