^^ Totally agree. Never strive for the minimum, unless it is your lap time!

 

I’m not pushing for it. I’m pushing against you saying M’s are not allowed for certain events (you had to move your goalposts there 3, or 4 times?). I’m also pushing against saying it’s dangerous, especially for autocrosses. Big difference.

I don’t know if anyone in this thread is very involved with decision making for track events (it reads like not), but I have been before (sanctioning body + club racing board) and safety discussion is a huge rolling topic. There is a constant push on improving safety and reviewing past safety rules to see if they need updating. Continuing to allow M helmets for certain events has stood up upon review over and over because the risk of injury and type of incidents are very different at autocross and DE’s vs actual racing where SA is required for obvious reasons. Basically, the people that know what they’re talking about on this topic that know a lot more than I do and seems obvious anyone else in this thread see no problem with M helmets for certain track events.

I also find it interesting it seems like no here one understands why M ratings continue to be viewed as safe and just assume anything other than a SA is dangerous in a car. It seems like no one knows that SA helmets are designed for competitive racing and are rated for roll bar impact testing and flammability testing. A K helmet goes through the same roll bar impact testing but has no flammability testing. A M helmet has impact testing but not roll bar testing and no flammability testing but also better vision than SAs may have. Fire and roll bar impacts are not really a factor for autocross and HPDEs, and if race prepped vehicles show up there are provisions (at least where I am) that require additional safety equipment. SA helmets, or possibly a full race suit. That is why they are viewed as safe for autocross and HPDEs by most organizations.

M = motorcycle is not exactly the definition either. There are helmet manufacturers that label M rating as for motorcycles/motor vehicles and for non competitive motor vehicle ‘racing’ (hpdes and autocross). Stilo is one such company.

So IMO telling someone a M helmet for autocross is dangerous is misinformation. The stats say 2/3rds of injuries at an autocross happen in the pits or grid (mainly pedestrian) and of the 1/3rd of the injuries that happen on track a significant portion are still car on pedestrian injuries (corner workers). Visibility/situational awareness being decreased by everyone running a SA helmet would likely see an increase in injuries not a decrease. You would also likely see zero decrease in injuries from collisions as collision injuries are already almost non existant.

And at no point did I recommend he should buy one. If you go back to my first post when I brought up M you’ll see my recommendation was if he already has a good light weight M helmet it might be better than a cheap SA helmet. After that the only person saying he should buy one seems to be you with your strawman of putting words in my mouth. If you feel like cherry picking some line to twist into another tangent proving you're right, don't bother. I obviously don't care if I get flamed on this, and I'm pretty sure I know some of the people that are posting haven't looked into this topic beyond a 5 minute google to find what fits their argument so i'd say we're likely on differnet levels of understanding on this; at least you haven't posted anything to lead me to the contrary...

 

As a person who has worked motorsports safety industry; run track operations; owned a race team: held competition licenses in IMSA, HSR, and SVRA; and has been a BMWCCA and PCA instructor, I'm sorry but, (for the sake of others looking for advice while reading this thread) I have to point out that your statement "risk of injury and type of incidents are very different at autocross and DE’s vs actual racing"is just wrong. I would agree that the risk of serious injury while participating in an autocross event is extremely unlikely and that a DOT Approved motorcycle full-faced helmet may be sufficient and appropriate for such an event - especially for someone is just starting out in a Stock class who may not want or be able to afford an SA rated helmet. The issue with your statement is placing DE's in the same category as autocross events. Although I have never heard of a person being severely injured in a sanctioned autocross event, I have known both drivers and instructors, sitting in the right seat, that have been severely injured or killed in DE events. HPDE participants are as at "risk of injury" as someone participating in a competitive racing event. I would venture to say even more so. If you have ever participated in an HPDE, you would know all the reasons that support this statement. These include, but are not limited to, high speeds, lack of driver experience/talent mixed with Red Mist, insufficient car preparation, and reliance upon DOT highway-rated safety equipment which is tested for 35 mph impacts. This applies to both the person in the car, as well as, others with whom they share the track. In the future, please do not propagate the misinformation that the risks associated with these two types of events are the same, they aren't. No disrespect intended, I just can't let such a patently false statement go unaddressed. Especially when it could potentially impact a person's safety while participating in a track event. This is personal to me.

 

Disclaimer - I haven't read the whole thread. But I have been doing motorsports events that require helmets for 20+ years and have owned a number of different types of helmets for use at car events

Open face is fine (and I would argue preferable) for autoX. If I were doing a track day, I would personally want the extra safety of a full-face helmet. I would also want a SNELL SA helmet for track for the extra fire protection that SA helmets have. SM helmets are less expensive but perfectly safe for autocross IMO.

One thing to note is the primary differences between SA and SM is that 1) SA has fire retardancy protection while SM does not require it (but may still have it depending on the helmet). 2) SM helmets are designed to take ONE HIT and self-sacrifice, and must be replaced after one major impact. Meanwhile SA helmets are designed to take multiple impacts and still be serviceable afterwards. So for example, if your car has a roll bar or roll cage that your helmet can hit in a minor incident, you probably want an SA helmet.

And one last thing - The helmet must fit your head properly to protect you properly! Try to buy or at least try on helmets locally. The helmet should fit tight around your head. It should initially be somewhat hard to get on and off your head. A brand new helmet might actually feel slight discomfort going on and off until you wear it a few times and break it in.

 

Good summary. Anyone just wandering into this thread should just read this and be done with it.

 

I totally agree. I have nothing more to add to the thread.

 

Aren't you glad you asked?

 

I am in agreement that some HPDEs depending on the car and track could increase the risk of multiple impacts to the point where a SA may be warranted as the minimum allowed in some cases. Speed of the vehicle and track layout and how safe the track is would be contributing factors to making that call. The locals should already be aware of the risk and have made the call at their events. Limerock was the track I looked up thinking it had the highest risk of multiple impacts at a HPDE and I didn’t look too hard but didn’t find any organization allowing a M helmet there and to me that seems logical for that specific track.



I am in disagreement about the types of accidents being the same though. Incidents in road racing are often multivehicle collisions, have the potential to collect innocent cars for additional hard impacts. They also involve vehicles with compromised safety equipment (gutted interiors) and additional safety equipment in the range of the drivers helmet (rollcages) that has not been crash tested. HPDE incidents are occasionally car on car (never seen it in my region) incidents but should never collect a secondary vehicle for multiple impacts. Accidents at a HPDE should be a single impact. Most cars at HPDE’s should not be compromised for crash tested safety equipment either, or have additional equipment added that the drivers head can impact. I know in my region I have never seen or heard of an incident at a HPDE that the additional impact rating on a SA would have mattered. Our tracks here are modern purpose built designs that M ratings are fine for.

The thing is, back when I was only half a decade into my racing life and first joined my local racing’s board I thought snell M?, why would we allow M’s at our HPDEs, seems dangerous, we require SA for racing, HPDE’s are basically the same so we should probably change that rule and make it more safe! but before I opened my mouth to suggest that at one of our meetings I looked into it as much as I could and then I kept my mouth shut. I see zero problems with M’s, with exceptions of course. We had an interesting discussion once that technically roll cages on modern cars might be causing risk as modern cars basically are so strong from the structure for pillars and roof and rockers that they effectively are already equiped with a roll cage that is better. No one's going to touch changing that rule wtih a 10 foot pole because cages are easy to police and door intrusion and percieved safety and all that, but we already brought it up as a casual topic that someday somewhere else cage rules might change.





I wouldn’t classify a dot helmet as safe. Dots are deadly. It’s not the same as a M helmet. A single impact test on a M and a SA helmet should be the same or as close as it doesn’t matter, but a DOT helmet is not even in the same ballpark.

 

^^^ Agree. I would not buy any helmet unless it has been SNELL tested, certified and rated. SNELL certified helmets (SA or SM) do not cost significantly more than any DOT-rated helmet. How much is your head worth?

Most AutoX and track day groups I am familiar with require a SNELL rated helmet anyway.

Don't cheap out on a helmet, and don't buy a helmet based on aesthetics.