worf928

Bottom line: If a person wants a base model with all of the performance options available on a base model why are they getting mugged by buying a T model that has all of those base-level performance options rolled into lower price than a base with those options?

I provided, above, objective evidence of why a 718T is not a mugging when compared to a 718 base with the performance options that are standard on the T.

So, it was a base 991.2 with a couple of standard or optional items from both the base and the S and weighed less. Included in the standard items list was a bunch of options (e.g. PVT, SC, PASM or sPASRM.) And all for a lower price than a base with those options. How is that a mugging?

You keep using that word in ways that suggest you don't know what it means. A mugging is when someone takes something from you. In this case Porsche actually took less of your money if you were planning on getting a base with all of the functional options that were standard on the T.

Or do you imply that Porsche was mugging folks for buying a base model with options? Or that Porsche was mugging folks for not providing a S model at a lower price point?

Wrong.

Availability of RAS (and LWBs) was one of the big draws for the 991.2T. What I can't understand are 991.2T builds without RAS.

It was a base model with base brakes. Your logic then applies to the GTS because it had the 'anaemic' <sic> brakes from the S rather than the bigger brakes from the Turbo?

Or were you expecting Porsche to throw in performance stuff for free?

The 7-speed MT was the only MT available on the non-GT 991. You want a bespoke transaxle from a GT3 on a base 991 with a base 991 price? As for PVT, if I recall correctly, PVT wasn't available on a base 991. If that was a feature you valued, Porsche "mugged" you by forcing you to buy an S.

A point I agreed with.

Oh? What's your reasoning for this? I have yet to see a thread on the 991 board where T owners decide that they've been mugged.

Why does the 718 GTS 4.0 at it's much higher price point (which in the states is still TBA) have anything to do with why a 718T is a 'mugging.' Why is the 4.0, that has yet to hit the streets, comparable to a 991.2T that has been on the streets for 2+ years now?

Or are you saying that folks that buy anything other than a GTS are getting mugged? Or that folks that bought a 991.2T 2 years ago *now* believe that they should have waited 3 years for the 4.0 GTS?

The 991 GTS was a marketing exercise just like the T. The 991.2 GTS was a 991.2 S with some functional options rolled into a higher base price. A 991.2S with power kit and the rest of the performance options has the same performance as a 991.2 GTS.

The 718 GTS 2.5 is almost the same deal: A 2.5S with some options and extras at a higher base price but actually a higher price than a 2.5 S with the options. The 2.5 GTS benefits from 15 extra hp not available on the S for any money.

I get that you don't like the T models. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to like or dislike things for subjective reasons.

But,

I provided sound, logical reasons why the T buyers aren't mugged: They get an optioned-up car at a lower price than a base with those options. You continue to ignore this and base your use of that word with reasoning that is essentially: "Because I don't like T's and because I say so." You seem to be unable to separate the objective from the subjective.

worf928

I agree and this will be my last post on this OT subject.
That is quite - abundantly - clear. And I have no issue with your lack of enthusiasm for base models.
This is subjective. They - base models - are what they are. Having extra-special derision for the T variants makes no sense though.
I doubt you can back that up with objective evidence. I doubt that base models depreciate more as a percentage of base price than S models or GTS models, etc. The depreciation argument though works in favor of the T and GTS models since options on base MSRP depreciate at a higher rate.Given two 9XXs in the same condition, with the same miles of the same model year, their auction price at 4 years old will be virtually the same even if one of them had a 25% higher MSRP due to a bunch of options. Or in other words, a 4-year-old GTS will have a higher auction price than a 4-year-old S with all the GTS options even if their MSRPs were the same.

Yellow Submarine

I do think few people will be undecided between the (still manual only) GT4 and the base 992 PDK even if the price is the same. These cars are so different in feel.

A more compelling choice would be between a secondhand manual 991.2 Carrera T and a new manual Cayman GTS 4.0 which are also about the same price but more similar in ethos than GT4 vs 992 base. I only test-drove the basic 991.2 PDK and the 982 GTS 2.5 PDK but having the smaller car with the big engine from my Spyder works for me. I would take the new GTS 4.0. Unless I really needed the back seats, which I don't.

groundhog

How so - a heavier, turbocharged car, with the unloved 7 speed manual or worse still the PDK without e-diff.........I am actually thinking about adding a GTS 4 and very clearly wouldn't go near a T or base 991.2 or 992.1 (and I have owned series 991.2 S and 991.2 GTS). The world moved on. The 982 with the 4L makes a lot of sense at so many levels.

The 992 are grand tourers - so if you want a top flight multidimensional road car you end up in either a 982 GTS 4L or 991.2 GTS and if you want something more track focussed (but still very much a road car) you end up with a GT3 RS (or GT4 RS) - softop, Boxter GTS or Spyder. The GT4 and GT3 are in no-mans land (or like the base a price point car).

However, I would add, perception is very dependant on what you are used to - no mystery in this.

kart driver

There will be one.
But it will have a slightly different name, 911 GT3 touring ))))

Apollo Falcon

In general, I think PAG really complicated the crap out of this. These are high end vehicles with more options than you can think of. Should be base or not base (i.e., Carrera or Turbo). GT or not GT. NA or turbo. Rear engine or mid engine. I think they did us a favor with the 992 as it really does seem like a step ever so much more into the grand tourer realm (although I agree the 991 is up there compared to a 997). I agree with above that I think for me it would be between a 991.2 Carrera T and a 718 GTS 4.0 if I had to only have one Porsche. But the small turbos on the 3.0L engine are phenomenal. I can shift almost at any rpm and use the whole range...I really think this goes unacknowledged a lot. At 20k miles my 7MT works like a dream.

NA engines are better for sound and higher rpm range IMO. I like both for different purposes. Nothing beats the sound of a GT car on the track...I think blipping on a downshift on the track in an NA engine or bringing it to the high end of the rev range is a beautiful thing. However, a toned down 4.0L NA with 6MT in a mid-engine platform seems potentially very useable on the street (yet to drive one).

Interestingly, I am partially agreeing with @groundhog that all these things come down to perception, your current garage, and purpose for these machines. Where we disagree is my ideal daily driver is hands down a 911T, where we agree is my ideal track focused car is a [fingers crossed] 718 GT4 RS.

For the OP, personally my ONLY vehicle is a 991.2 CT and it is a Swiss Army knife of sports cars...it can be anything at almost any time. Where it doesn't optimally perform is at the extreme ends of the spectrum: It's neither a minivan/utility vehicle nor a surgical track weapon. However, it does still do well on the track (tried and tested at COTA) and I still am able to go grocery shopping. If I had a truck or something in addition to a Porsche, I may be more inclined to go with the GT4. If you are tracking more than a few times a year, go with the GT4. If you are a mods person, the 991.2 CT or base 911.2 Carrera are great platforms for tunes and tires for the track as well. Personally, I am not a fan of the 992 over a 991.2 CT albeit the 992 actually does look good in person.

Westcoast

Shhhhsh! we don't want every one figuring this out!

worf928

But, but, but... don’t you feel *mugged* by Porsche.

(ok, I promised. sorry. couldn’t help myself.)

groundhog

Its all about perception - I have a 720S and GT3RS (II) in the garage - so the T is very meh to me (and I'm an active competitor in state and national level motorsport events). This doesn't mean the T is meh to you and yet the spec sheet hasn't changed. Your perception and my perception of what makes a car dynamite are very different.

So to put it another way, if a consumer like myself had purchased a T to be some sort of defacto GTS/GT3/RS it would have been a mugging (a friend of mine who sold his 997 (II) GT3 and bought a T - ended selling the T within 3 months - I can assure you he felt very mugged) whereas some one like yourself who sees the T as a sharp daily doesn't see it that way or feel that way. You purchased the right horse for your own course.

In contrast, my fun car is a 981 GTS - its fun because its nimble in a way that no Carrera can emulate. The 982 GTS (GT4/SpyderGT4RS) will step this fun factor to another level, that may only be achieved in the real world by the 992 GT3 and above. Its not hard to understand the reasons why.

worf928

That is certainly a mugging.

I have seen the reverse up here in Pothole Land: Wait N months for a 991 GT3. Get it and realize that - for them - using it as a DD on New England roads is like sticking a body part in a blender and hitting pulse every once in a while (yes, hyperbole there.) Trade it after two weeks for a on-the-lot new 991 C4S.

That may be more of a mugging than 997GT3 to 991T to something else.

However, these muggings are neither Porsche's fault through marketing nor the fault of the respective cars. They are what they are. It's not like Porsche aired TV commercials featuring a 991T beating up on <insert exotic car here.> Whereas, if you believe Dodge's commercials, buying an SRT, Demon, et. al, will make you best friends with Vin.

Both of the protagonists in our two stories mugged themselves and there are various possible root causes that led to poor a car decision for each.

Better getting mugged by a poor car decision that a poor wife decision...

groundhog

and in regard to the cars you are correct, people can let themselves be mugged particularly if they go into a purchase with the wrong expectations. As a general rule (at least where I live) I have found the Porsche sales people take great care to match a person to a vehicle. In part its because our market is small and an unhappy customer is one that may not return. Ultimately it ended well for my friend - he ended up purchasing a very nice 991.2 GT3(touring).

Very interested to see what Porsche pull out for the GT4 RS. Will it be the full box of tricks or a partial walk down that path. Having said that, the 718GTS 4L and Spyder are very appealing for different reasons.

Westcoast

I thought it was called a divorce in either case, except with the car you didn't need a lawyer to get out!