kdjones2000

Hi all,

I was just curious what you guys would think a Super 90 that has had its engine and transmission rebuilt, but the rest of the car is still in need of restoration, would go for?

I have a relative who has one that has been sitting in the desert for the last 10 years under wraps, and was wondering how much something like that would reasonably go for. As far as I could tell, it had very little rust, but I am thinking that the interior is mostly shot, and would need at least a paint job.

Kind of interested in worth, plus how difficult/expensive it would be to get the necessary parts to make it nice, not concours.

Thanks in advance,

Keith

ked

Keith, a Super 90 is an engine designation, but it is likely some kind of 356B.
We need more info to give you a useful WAG.
Is it a Coupe, Cab or Roadster?
Do you have the MY? VIN? Engine #? Paint code?
Any special options (sunroof or)?
How many miles?
Describe the "very little rust" - has it always lived in the desert?
Is it under wraps in a building or exposed?
Any accidents?
Is the drivetrain installed - was it overhauled & re-installed (& left in the desert)?

Could be worth $5k... or $25K... as it sits. A decent B Coupe w/ S90 could go for $30K +/- $15K. Parts are not difficult to get, some are expensive, most are not. If you just want a driver, if you are lucky it might not cost more than $5K to make it usable. It could also be a nightmare (rebuilt engine shot from poor storage, brakes shot, interior shot, susp shot, etc). It all depends... peel back the onion some more.

kdjones2000

Thanks for the help with an estimate. I am not near the car right now, but will be out there over Turkey Day. I will take a better look then.

Here is what I know now, as far as it goes.

1) I think it is a Coupe, certainly not a cab.
2) It is a yellow color, but no information on VIN or anything. No idea if numbers match or not.
3) My wife's cousin owns it, and I expect that the rebuild was done well, based upon what I know of him.
4) No sunroof, not sure about other options (Or what other options there even are)
5) Regarding condition/storage: It is out in the elements and has been for years, but at the same time it is under some heavy tarps in the desert. I have taken them off a little, and didn't see too much rot (none, actually).
6) I would expect that the brakes and much of the suspension are probably in need of a complete overhaul.
7) No idea about accidents, but it looks intact as it sits
8) All drivetrain is in the car, and I think it would probably start if it were prepped up.

Thanks for the info on parts. I found some things on Pelican, and the prices sure do vary

Will take some pics and such when I am out there, and see how it goes.

Thanks again,

Keith

ked

seems you got a 356B Coupe w/ S90 motor. after getting the chassis & motor #s, inspect the batt box, wheel wells, rocker panels, door jambs, underside of the doors, floorpans... well, everywhere (don't kink the trunklid!) for rust & signs of past damage. if the chassis is solid & the drivetrain is ok (esp w/ the original S90), then you may really be onto something.

For research, here's what I recommend...
study the the 356 Registry website, esp the technical articles, esp as relating to bringing a stored engine back to life. lotsa issues having to do w/ the fuel, the tank, the fuel ****, the fuel lines, & the carbs to be dealt with, & of course the electrics, coil & dist... also, all the 356 parts source specialists are listed under vendors, & there is a very active chapter in AZ you may wish to consult.
http://www.356registry.org/Tech/index.html

the best books for someone new to 356s are (imo):
Schrager's "Buying, Driving & Enjoying the Porsche 356"
Kellogg's "Porsche 356 / Guide to Do-it-Yourself Restoration"
Elfrink's "Porsche Technical Manual" (so old there was no 911 yet)
Jenkinson's "Porsche Past & Present" provides insight to the 356 mystique by a guy who was there when it started, & in fact helped to define it.
have fun! {but look out for snakes & scorpions...}

kdjones2000

Thanks a bunch for the tips/references. I will take a look and see where this goes from there.

Cheers,

Keith

kdjones2000

Okay, so here's is what I have found out about this car.

It is either a 1956 or 1958 356, looks to me to be a "B", and is supposed to have a Super 90 engine in it. The engine was rebuilt, but has been sitting for many years now in the desert.

The engine casing numbers do not match, with one saying B1432, and the other is totally different. I am thinking that there must have been something wrong with one side, and it was replaced.

I could not find the VIN anywhere (Didn't know where to look), nor could I find the transmission casing number. I could not get into the bonnet, either.

Here is a link to pictures: http://70.176.165.176:81/Jalbum/356Porsche/index.html

Almost every body panel, including the front bumper, has some bondo on it. Neither door opens cleanly, and one side did have an accident at some time.

This is the only 356 that i have seen so far that does not have "1600" or something on the back, only the "Super 90". Is this normal?

What do you think about this car, is it restorable? To me, it seems like a lot of work, but I was wondering what others here think? Is this a Super 90 engine, or something swapped out of another car? How much would this thing be worth if it was cleaned up?

Cheers,

Keith

jcnesq

That would be a 1962 or 1963 T6 B Coupe. The immediate giveaways are the shape of the front hood (changed in 1962), and the drum brakes (changed to disk brakes in 1964 with the C models).

It's pretty rough, but probably worthy as a project if it could be bought fairly cheap. Apart from engine, brake and mechanical work, which it undoubtedly needs, it needs body work, paint, and obviously needs a new interior.

Unless you can do a lot of the work yourself, you're going to spend a lot of money getting it back to nice driver condition, and when done it probably won't be worth what you have put into it. But if you buy it cheap and would enjoy working on it, I wouldn't tell you not to. (Definitely have to make sure the engine turns freely and dig deeper into what is really there.)

My gut is the value as it sits is between 5-10K, with 10 probably being too high.

Stratman

Where is the oil filter can? Also if it were an S-90 the paint on the fan shroud would be silver.

ked

You know, one of the iconic (& endearing) aspects of the 356 design is the "Porsche smile" that graces its face. Keith, this car is not smiling. It is a sad 356. Five years ago this car would be parted out. Today, top restoration shops, some slip-shod operations & a surprising number of dedicated individuals are taking up the challenge (& in some cases, the profits) of restoring far-below-grade cars. The market (& the heart) rule. I concur w/ Jim's estimates, absent an in-person exam & some further research into its history. I think we are all suprised on how ANY 356 is going up in value - the froth is a bit nerve-wracking (seems all markets are these days).

This car would be a challenge in terms of craft & market conditions. However, in your position (as I best understand it), I would not enter upon a restoration... unless I were either a) very motivated & patient - learning along the way, realizing I would make costly mistakes as I went, take a great deal of time & labor (& $$s), & not expecting anything at the end except a driveable 356 in which I had personal satisfaction & pride... or b) rich.

For those who want to enter the 356 world for the first time, here is what I suggest...
- study & research... join the Registry... wrangle rides & drives in a whole range of examples... build confidence in your ability to accurately evaluate any 356,
- assemble your personal set of consultant-participants, utilize their wisdom,
- establish & document your criteria, budget & schedule... have it critiqued & improve it,
- assemble the warchest. until you ID at least 75% of the funds to fulfill your plan, you are at risk of failure. (actually, you are always at risk... some would say 150% - they speak from experience).
- start hunting. of course, be patient & bring in your consultants to confirm the choice you are about to invest in.

Remember - even a free car does not ensure a successful outcome. In this case, I would be tempted to either treat this forelorn example as a long term hobby-project / education process, kinda like (re-)building a ship in a bottle; or help the owner sell it to a wealthy, eccentric German who insists on bringing all the lost & damaged children back to their birth-land... at any cost. Then, w/ your share as seed capital, embark on Your Own Plan. just my $.02... good luck!

camchain

Hello Kieth,
The car in the photographs is a T-6 B. Most likely from the 1963 model year but it may be a 1962. I'm sure that it is not a super 90. The engine number that you have shown in the photographs is actually the casting number. It was cast in 1964. The zenith carbs tell us that the engine is is a 356C, or a 356B 1600 super or a 1600 normal. A super 90 would have solex carbs. The tachometer is from a 1600 normal with the green area starting at 2,500 rpm and the turn signal indicator in the instrument indicates that it is original to a T-6 car. The (unique) super 90 badge is from a T-5 super 90. This type of badge wasn't used on t-6 cars and is not mounted in the factory location.
Now, please do find the VIN. It will be stamped in the flat steel area under the front compartment plastic lining and just above the spare tire footman's loop. It should also be stamped on the aluminum plate located to the left of the footman's loop. The plate found on the driver's door hinge cover would also have the number but it is missing.
I am curious about the VIN because of the car's colour. My father owned #213822 and had it painted Porsche Bahama Yellow around 1966. I learned to drive in 213822 and my wife and I went to our High School prom in her (I still can't believe that he trusted me to drive it to prom - thanks dad). 38 years and six 356s later I would love to know the cars fate.
Is it worth restoring? - yes, they all are in my opinion. Will it make any economic sense? - not really. The photos that you posted show the easy and cheap parts of the car. The real expense will come with repairing any rust issues.
The attached photos will show you where to find the various numbers (from the 356B drivers handbook) and a circa 1970 photo of 213822.
Ron Hetherington
Denver

kdjones2000

Thanks for the very deep insights into this car, guys.

It is very nice to know that this seems to be quite a bit of a bastard car, with parts/engine from different models and years. My thoughts are very similar to yours in terms of the car's condition, how much work/$$$ would be involved, etc.

For the record, I am not about to jump into this quickly, or anything for that matter. I already have an '88 951 that I have done much to, so I am familiar with Porsche and what things go for in general.

I was unable to open the front tire/gas tank compartment when I was there, as the release cable was broken. Hence I was unable to get to the VIN and other important areas of the car. Unfortunately, the car is about 5 hours away from me, so it will be a while before I get a chance to look at it again.

The more that I looked at it, the more I was inclined to leave resting dogs lying. Lots of time, lots of money, lots of patience would be needed to tackle this one, and right now I really don't have the time or space to do this kind of project.

We shall see how things go, but right now it looks like the car will be hanging out in the desert for a few more years.....

Thanks again,

Keith

matt13421342

If you decide to pass on the car, I'd be interested in buying it. Or if you were interested in a trade for another Porsche ... Shoot me an email at oelboxer@yahoo.com

kdjones2000

Matt,

The car is not really for sale at this time. I was mostly interested in what it is, restoration possibilities, etc. If it made sense, then I was going to work to convince the cousin that he simply had to "give it up" so that I could make it what it should be.....

Feedback right now is that he still wants to keep it. If that changes, I will let you guys know.

Cheers,

Keith

PS: Any of you guys have tips on how to get the Bonnet opened, if the release cable is broken? I will take a look for the VIN and other issues in that area, if I can get the darned thing open the next time I am out there!

camchain

Well, here it is described in the 1962 356B driver's handbook. If the emergency cable is missing try a bent wire through the openings pictured below. It's not that tough to catch the release and pull it open. BTW I wouldn't describe this car as a "bastard". Like most of the 356s out there it just had an engine change and then someone attached the wrong badge to the back.
Ron Hetherington