Bob M

Greetings 356'ers,

I am the very lucky recipient of a friend's 1959A. He is moving to New Mexico and decided that it needed a good home, so asked if I was interested. Long story short, when I told him I was ready to send a check, he cut me off and said not to worry about the money, that it was a gift. Can you believe that? I can hardly believe it myself!! Since then I have been reading everything related to the 356 I can get my hands on, but I wonder if I could trouble the members of this great list for some advice? The car has been in storage in CA with the motor sitting next to it since 1979 and is in need of a substantial restoration, so I am not sure where to start.

Right now it is sitting in a friend's warehouse in Los Alamitos. In my research, I discovered that Wilhoit is located relatively close by in Long Beach. I thought that I would ask them to come look at the car and give me an opinion as to a direction and a general ballpark estimate for restoration. Does this sound like a good way to go? From what I have read, they have a great reputation and the last issue of Porsche Excellence featured an article on a 356 Outlaw that one of the Wilhoit guys did for himself. It looked great BTW!

The other general question I had was whether it would be better to restore it to stock or to turn it into an Outlaw? I know that this depends on several factors, but what do you think? If I restored it to stock, would it be worth the investment it takes to do it to a decent level of finish? If it turned out that was not the case, I would be tempted to do an Outlaw, as I really like what some people have done with these cars.

Thanks in advance for any advice anyone might give to me. I will send pictures of the car, when I get out to CA later this month.

Bob

Vancouver83LTD

wow
your friend is nice you're going to need every penny to restore that car.

Stratman

Wilhoit is first rate. Don't be surprised to hear 20+ and possibly way more according to the shape of the body, interior etc.

Going Outlaw would be cheaper. 14 years ago I bought a 63S for 7k. It had rust on the lower doors. Other than that it was nice. I completely replaced the interior, headliner, etc. Went with leather and that was 5k. I had the Maestro cook up one of his creations. Another 6k. Bare metal paint job. 5K. Those were mid 90's prices. I went the outlaw route and plan to keep the car in the family from now on.

ventoGT

We would all have to see the car to be able to tell you, but if the car is really rough, and if the numbers aren't matching, etc etc you will have more fun Outlaw-in it. JoAnne and Robert had a really nice Outlaw that they sold about a year and a half ago named Max and that car was insanely cool. Post some pics when you get a chance and don't forget to visit www.356registry.org for a whole bunch of info.

You can join that mailing list [unfortunately they don't have a forum like this] and you will get connected to a plethora of knowledge and people dealing in 356-dom.

Congrats on the car and I can't wait to see the pics!

Bob M

Thanks for the feedback Stratman and Cole. You too Brett!

Regarding Wihoit, from what I have read, they have a great reputation and their shop looks to be high end, so I expect they will be expensive. This will give me a point of reference from that perspective though and something to make a better decision upon regarding how and in what direction to proceed.

Cole, I looked through the picture thread that JoAnne started last year and saw quite a few pictures of her and Robert's old friend Max in it -- great car! I also saw quite a few pictures of other Outlaws that I really liked and some beautifully restored stock 356A's as well. If, as I said originally, the cost to restore to a high level stock condition exceeds the finished value, then an Outlaw the car will be.

Regarding pictures, I will be sure to post some as soon as possible. Maybe I can convince my buddy to take a few and send them to me sometime this week. Otherwise, I will take them myself once I am out in CA toward the end of the month.

Regarding the condition of the car, I had a chance to look at it briefly last month before I knew that it would be mine, so wasn't looking at it too critically. I did notice the obvious though. The paint was crazed and cracking in spots, there were a few small bubbles in the paint here and there, indicating some rust issues, and, the dash and headliner were falling down/apart.

On the positive side, except for some dings in the bumper, the body looked very straight and undamaged. In fact my friend verified that it had never been in an accident. I also remember hearing a very satisfying and solid clunk when the door shut.

They reason for the motor being out of the car was that it had been damaged by a flatbed tow driver, who banged the bottom of it while unloading the car in 1979. My buddy noticed an oil leak several days later and decided to have it pulled and rebuilt. The cylinders and pistons were replaced amongst other things, but it was never remounted in the car. It's been on the floor since then, so I am willing to bet it needs to be disassembled and redone. Anyway, that's all I can tell you for now. Oh, its black BTW.

As I said, I will keep the list up-to-date with the adventure I am about to begin. It should be interesting to say the least.

If anyone else wants to chime in with sage advice, I am all ears and would be very appreciative. Thanks,

Bob

PS,
My friend is also giving me every piece of Porsche/motorsports related literature he collected over the years. I have yet to go through it all, but have already found some real gems -- a signed copy of "The 356 Porsche" by Dr. B Johnson for one. I will inventory the collection and post it later.

Stratman

http://www.356a.com/index.htm check the #'s on your engine here. No telling what you have. And you might be lucky with the engine. It may be perfectly ok. You might get lucky.

ventoGT

Sounds promising from what you describe. In general, if you have to do any sort of moderately extensive restoration, a coupe won't make its value back. You do have the A body, which is beautiful, but Cabriolets/Roadsters/Speedsters are the money makers in the marketplace. Coupe values are being pulled up by some of the Speedsters and other drop tops reaching stratospheric values [especially given the production numbers], but they will remain on the lower end of the 356 Market forever most likely.

Can't wait to see the pics--looking forward to it!

Pedro356C

Bob...Willhoit is a top end restoration facility and you should expect to pay top $ for their service...restoration is a love matter...don't even try to be rational as the cost will exceed the car's value considering you have a coupe in your hands...ask your heart and if your pocket can follow...go for it...good luck...

PS. Join the 356 Registry NOW!

RJT

We currerently own a Willhoit car, our '58 Coupe. This is our Keeper Car. John Willhoit is expensive but he has one of the best and respected restoration shops on the West Coast. There are also several great shops on the East Coast, one of which is Karosserie Ltd. in Fairfax VA (ask for Lewis) . If you are planning on keeping your car for yourself, then do what you want to it. It is YOUR car. We've have/had both restored to original cars, to the the most outragious Emory Outlaw. We throughly enjoy owning both. Right now we are sort of half heartedly looking for another "in need of some repairs" A Coupe that we can turn into an Outlaw along the lines of "Max" but not as Baaad. Max was not a "going Cheaper" Outlaw

Personally I love Outlaws. However, I also feel that if a car is in really good shape to begin with, it should be restored to as original as possible. I truly appreciate the folks out there that think a 100% authentic restoration is the only way to go. Those are the people that are keepers of past. Now, if you find out that your car has some issues, then HAVE fun! Go the Outlaw route. There's nothing like sitting down with a blank piece of paper and drawing out what you want your car to look like.

Whatever you decide to do, you are already ahead of the game in the cost department. Do you know how lucky you are to have been given a car to start with. Wow.

How about some pictures???

J

BTW: Max:

Bob M

Thanks for the link Stratman. I will research the number as soon as I can get it off the car. It’s a little hard right now as I am about 2500 miles away from it. I have asked my friend who is storing it to see if he can find it for me.

Thanks for the additional feedback Cole. I agree with you regarding the shape of the '59. The more I look at it, the more I like it!

Thanks for your thoughts Pedro. I will certainly join the 356 Registry as soon as I can get the chassis number etc to put into the application.

And thank you for the feedback and for reposting the pictures of Max JoAnne. I do know how lucky I am and will do my best to make the most of it. I am glad to hear from a customer of John Wilhoit. From all of the endorsements, I am sure he will give me an accurate evaluation. I will follow through with a phone call and set up a time for this to take place. I'd like to be there when it happens so will try to do it when I am out in CA the last week of the month. If he says it is a numbers matching car without too many major issues and I can restore it without going too upside down, then I will probably go that route. But, I am already leaning toward an Outlaw (your Max, helped head me in that direction!) so it wouldn't take much to tip me down that path. We'll see how it goes ....

Regarding pictures, I asked my buddy to take some for me, so I could have something in my hands soon rather than having to wait and do it myself in a couple weeks. Hopefully he can do this in the next few days so I can share them with you all.

Can't believe how obsessed I've become with this car.

Bob

RJT

Hey there Bob,
I see you are located in Michigan.
You have to check out www.356enterprises.com
Vic Skirmants is a Transmissions and Engines Specialist. If we ever had to have another engine rebuilt we'd send it to him. He is pretty booked up, so you might have to wait a while to get the engine/tranny back but it would be worth it. Vic is very knowledgable and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you picked his brain a little bit

J

356wannabe

It is my impression that the outlaw cars are a bit like the 356 replica's, interesting but they may not hold their value the way a car restored to originality will. BTW, you can join the 356 Registry without a chassis #. I have been a member for many years and have never owned a 356.

ked

I disagree - a replica never can be a real 356, an outlaw always is. Then there is the scarcity aspect - the factory isn't building any more 356s, kits are popping out of the molds every day. An outlaw can be restored to a very high standard (concours), have meaningful mods AND in many cases can even be returned to kardex originality. Outlaws that have had substantial body mods expertly performed (thus not likely to be returned to original) still retain their provenance. They can command very high prices, though it is a very thinly traded market.

In most cases, a 356 replica-kit is the approach to have a Porsche experience of some sort in an owners mind (or the fun of assembling a car yourself) in the most cost-effective & sensible manner. Outlaws aren't about cost-effectiveness, that's for sure! It can be so labor-intensive to fully execute an outlaw that many builders start w/ a near basket case, thus saving those old chassis from the junk yard (a good thing).

Schrager's article in the July SCM touches on how the 356 market is evolving. Kardex paint, interior & matching #s drivetrain aren't the holy grail it once was. Now, we shall see if the muscle car / resto-mod set begin to gravitate toward 356s because they are so appealing compared to spending many hundreds of thousands of $s on Mopar & Mustang iron. The very old guard generation of 356 owners are beginning to pass on & the market is transitioning. Interesting to see what happens.

RJT

You might want to think about your "impression" a little harder. Our Outlaw, Max, pictured above, sold last year for $92,000. A restored "to original" 55 Coupe would probably bring half that price, maybe a little more.
One of Gary Emory's last outlaw creations, before he retired, is for sale at 225 GRAND!
A replica is just that, a replica, as in a replica Rolex watch for 75 bucks. Yes, it tells time (maybe), looks alot like the real thing, but it's a FAKE, a FONEY. The same as driving around in a Speedster replica. But if a person feels OK driving around in a replica, also known as a FAKE,.....fine.

Bob M

First of all, thanks again JoAnne for the Vic Skirmants reference. He certainly has great credentials and is a lot closer to me. Your plan to use him for future engine rebuilds is an endorsement to be sure! I will give him a call as soon as I have a chance to "survey" the car.

Thanks for the heads-up regarding joining the 356 registry without the need for a car or chassis number, 356wannabe. I still want to get the numbers into my membership application. I'll be there soon.

And, 356wannabe, regarding your comments about Outlaws, I agree with ked and JoAnne. Resto mods in the classic domestic car market are really catching on and going for top dollar. The Barrett-Jackson auctions had numerous examples of this trend. And JoAnne, your own experience with Max bears this out as well. I think that if a car is done well, the high level craftsmanship will be reflected in the sales price. That is why Max sold for twice the price of restored showroom stock version of the same car.

And, I have not verified this yet, but I was told on Monday at my Porsche Club meeting that Mark Motshagen's 356 Outlaw coupe, featured in the August issue of "Porsche Excellence," took top honors at the Dana Point 356 Concours this past weekend. Have you seen this car? It's a real work of art! If he decided to sell it, it would certainly go quickly and for a very high price. And ... IMHO, it would be worth every cent the lucky new owner paid for it. A replicar, even if done as well from a cosmetic point of view, wouldn't be in the same league.

Bob M
Still waiting for pictures!