RJT

We saw Marks car last year and it is a cool Outlaw! His engine alone is easily worth over $50,000.00. If it is true that Mark took the Best of Show honors this year at Dana Point Concours we are both glad to hear it. Mark has put his heart and soul into that car, and it shows. He really does deserve it!

356wannabe

RJT: Wow! I had no idea.

It raises a mildly interesting question: when does an outlaw stop being a 356 and start being a remanufactured car? In other words, if the car is almost entirely re-enginered (+$50K engine), when has it exceeded its 356 DNA and become something totally different.?

If I bought a plastic 356, but built to 356 specs, and put a real Speedster steering wheel in it, it might be closer to a real 356 than an outlaw. But we would both agree it was a fake. So when does the outlaw start becoming fake (altho a magnificent and expensive one?).

And my real question: When is Porsche going to wake up and start building modern iterations of the 356? If BMW can do it with the MINI, why not Porsche?

ked

"When is Porsche going to wake up and start building modern iterations of the 356?"
they've been doing so since '65, they call it the 911. Frere's "911 Story", Ch 1 provides a concise overview, Ludvigsen's EWE is comprehensive on Ferry's thoughts, Butzi's design & the engineer's implementation of that transition.

RJT

An Outlaw will never be Fake because it was BORN a PORSCHE in Germany.

An outlaw is a PORSCHE because it still has a Porsche Chassis and a Porsche Engine and a Porsche Transmission etc. Both our car and Mark's car started life as a Porsche in Germany. All that we all did was to take what Porsche manufactured and kick it up an notch or two (or THREE!!!) and rip out stuff that wasn't needed to make the car faster .The only thing Non Porsche on Max was the Gas Tank. PERIOD. It is a Replica (fake) when it has a body manufactured by someone other than Porsche in a factory in Gardena, CA (or anywhere) out of Fiberglass or Steel, and an engine manufactured by someone other than Porsche, and a transmission manufactured by someone else other than Porsche etc.

If you buy a kit body and build it to 356 specs you will have a really cool car, but it will never be a Porsche because it wasn't build by Porsche. I mean, doesn't that make sense? You'd have a car made by " Insert your name here" . Anyone who builds their own car should be proud of the fact that they built it. Don't play it off as built by Porsche. Unfortunately many kit car owners out there have irritated 356 owners by representing their cars as Porsche's. They irritate Porsche too, but what can you do? nothing like being in a car show to find out that you are going up against two or three replicas playing themselves off as the real deal. There will always be people who lie about things, just to make themselves feel better. Living where we do now, we've met a few
Heck, they've even lied to the Police when questioned about their car/s. Oh well...............................................

356wannabe

OK, once a Porsche, always a Porsche.

As to Bob M's original post. His car seems to be in decent shape. Are the outlaws typically based on "basket cases" ie., 356's so far gone that restoration amounts to rebuilding almost from scratch, anyhow, often at enormous cost? Thus, why not turn it in to an outlaw? Since his car may not be too far gone, would it be a better investment to restore it to its original condition for a relatively modest amount of money (e.g: $10K)?

I understand this is all somewhat theoretical and "restoration" can be exceedingly slow and expensive and that a restored hardtop has a relatively fixed value that may be much lesss than the actual restoration costs. But IF it could be put back into a "daily driver" condition for $10K, isn't that more feasible than making it into an outlaw?

ked

no Porsche basket case can be re-made into an outlaw OR an original for $10K... or $20K... or $30K (if your standards are high & you outsource labor) for that matter. there is no typical case for 40+ yr old Porsches. don't think of the $ (one always spends more than budgeted, or bails), focus on the desired result, then work back from there (is my approach).

356wannabe

But the poster's car isn't a basket case & he is seeking guidance on whether to restore it to stock or go outlaw. Given that his funds are limited, my thought (admittedly unencumbered by anything resembling actual knowledge) is that it would be cheaper to try to approximate stock because the investment would be less and the finished product would be worth more (on a per dollar spent basis).

Remember, the car is free. So if he can turn it into a nice daily driver for $10K it could easily be worth $20K. If he spent $100K and turned it into a killer outlaw worth $110K, his return per dollar invested is much less.

ked

"Are the outlaws typically based on "basket cases" ie., 356's so far gone that restoration amounts to rebuilding almost from scratch, anyhow, often at enormous cost? Thus, why not turn it in to an outlaw?"

I was responding to (misunderstanding?) the above... I can only describe the approach for myself - it may not apply to him...

if it is an investment matter, then I'd sell it as it sits - that will realize the greatest roi. thus, out-of-pocket investment is best aimed at marketing. if my intent were to keep it, then, first, deciding the end-state (hobby, shows, driving, racing, whatever) + clarifying my own taste, determines whether to go outlaw or original or whatever. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else.

ventoGT

Anything on a 356 is going to cost money, as stated by Ked earlier. Honestly, $10K will get the valves adjusted, a new ignition coil, distributor, spark plugs, new wires, carb tune-up, oil/fluid change, tires, and grease, as well as doing any brake work/suspension work probably.

That's it. [Again, assuming that the labor is outsourced to a competent mechanic who knows the 356 well and assuming you aren't doing your own labor]. Nothing is cheap with these cars, so if he wants to get it into running condition, and assuming that there is no rust to take care of/bodywork, then he'll spend $15-20K in decent paint and getting it running. Of course this is an estimate, but correcting and making things right on these cars is not cheap.

Stratman

I'm no mechanic. But, adjusting the valves, changing plugs etc any monkey could do. And the parts still aren't that high. I've even changed the brakes, repacked wheel bearing etc. The 356 is the most basic car there is. State of the art 1960.

I mean that in a good way.

Jay Laifman

Yes and no. There are lots and lots of variations between 356s with different adjustments required for each. For example, between the various Solexs and Zeniths, there were 3 if not 4 float bowl heights. I learned this the hard way as my 356 came with stock Zeniths set at one of the Solex heights. It made a huge difference. There are also a number of special ways of doing things on 356s to make them Porsche-right. Your standard monkey simply does not know these things. There are also various replacement parts out there that are a pale comparison to the right Porsche part. Take for example a correctly rebuilt by Don Marks stock distributor compared to an 050 or even an 009. Any monkey will happily ditch that worn out, wobbly shaft stock distributor and bolt on an 050 or 009. It will run, and somewhat decently. But, it will not have that subtle 356 advance curve specifically designed by Porsche. Will it cause large drops of hp? No. But, the car will never have that special life in it that the right advance curve provides. But, that monkey got it running and the timing advance holding - only the wrong timing.

So, I would VERY STRONGLY suggest against using a standard monkey (and even sometimes that monkey in the mirror - as I happily admit I am one) and finding someone who really knows state of the art 60s 356 techniques. Sadly, those people are very few and far between, and plenty will take your money claiming to be such experts when they are not.

ventoGT

I'm less of a mechanic than you are, hence my earlier post. I have a great guy who has been working on 356s for longer than I have been alive [Pat Collins in Norcross, GA for those of you in the Southeast] who I am trying to learn more from.

Until I learn, I will leave the work to the pros...I just wanted to make sure that our original poster knew ahead of time if he were like me [and was not going to do the work himself] that it is not a cheap proposition to dive in with these cars.

Also, the car is wildly different than a VW in terms of setting the car up to run correctly from what everyone, Pat included has told me. I have seen cars that come into his shop that cost 5x or more what I paid for mine in much nicer condition running 10x worse than my car because someone who said they knew how to set up the car had royally screwed the proverbial pooch on it.

RJT

So true.

Been there................. Done That................
LEARNED FROM IT!!!!

JoAnne

AaronR968

Congrats on the new car. Do what you want with it and make it worth your while.

Bob M

My Buddy in CA sent these to me last night. The interior is a mess, but the body looks pretty straight. (BTW, the lump inside the plastic bag sitting in the passenger seat is the motor) Based on the pictures it appears to be in much better shape than I thought. I will get to see it in person next Thursday and will be better able to offer more details. I am also hoping to get John Wilhoit or one of his staff over to look at it. I'll keep you posted.

Bob