How strange is this
05-08-2005, 10:30 PM
#1
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How strange is this
I was admiring a 1963 356 in the local Safeway parking lot the other day. This baby was immaculate from top to bottom and inside and out. The leather and carpeting were new, the cream colored paint and resurfaced Porsche steering wheel, the dash and gages...I mean it was simply BEAUTIFUL!!!
The owner saw me and introduced himself. He complimented my car as I did his...he popped the hood and the engine was spotless as well. You could eat your dinner in the engine compartment. BUT I did a double take and sure enough it was a VW engine which looked brand new. This guy told me this is done all the time...many owners pop VW engines in their 356's. He had gone thru two Porsche engines since the car was new and parts were getting difficult to come by.
The car had belonged to his father so its been in the family a long time. He said the car would be going on the market soon and that he was going to ask between 10 and 12 for the baby. He has full documentation since new with original purchase records and repair records history.
I neglected to ask him about the transmisson and the rest of the drive train.
My questions:
Is this true?
Is it common?
Do VW engines just 'pop in"
What about the transmission? wouldn't that have to be a VW as well?
Thx...
Jim
The owner saw me and introduced himself. He complimented my car as I did his...he popped the hood and the engine was spotless as well. You could eat your dinner in the engine compartment. BUT I did a double take and sure enough it was a VW engine which looked brand new. This guy told me this is done all the time...many owners pop VW engines in their 356's. He had gone thru two Porsche engines since the car was new and parts were getting difficult to come by.
The car had belonged to his father so its been in the family a long time. He said the car would be going on the market soon and that he was going to ask between 10 and 12 for the baby. He has full documentation since new with original purchase records and repair records history.
I neglected to ask him about the transmisson and the rest of the drive train.
My questions:
Is this true?
Is it common?
Do VW engines just 'pop in"
What about the transmission? wouldn't that have to be a VW as well?
Thx...
Jim
Last edited by Res Ips; 05-08-2005 at 10:52 PM.
05-08-2005, 11:07 PM
#2
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I believe Type I and Type IV engines will bolt in with little to no modifications. I will be putting a Type IV in my 356C outlaw project.
05-08-2005, 11:11 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by sharky47
I believe Type I and Type IV engines will bolt in with little to no modifications. I will be putting a Type IV in my 356C outlaw project.
is this common, then...what about the transmission and drive train?
Thx for the info...
Jim
05-09-2005, 12:44 AM
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Jim,
I don't know if I'd call it common. A few years back if a 356 needed an engine rebuild, the cost was sometimes close to what the car was worth (well almost)! So to save a few bucks people would put a VW motor in instead of a Porsche motor. With the value of 356s going up and up, I doubt too many people would try saving money by doing that these days. With the exception of an Outlaw like Dan mentioned. I have a Type IV in my Outlaw. But a regular Type I in an otherwise "beautiful" 356 would decrease the value quite a bit. 10-12 grand could be about right. If the car is as nice as you say it is, it would be worth 20+ if it had the original #s matching motor.
Robert
I don't know if I'd call it common. A few years back if a 356 needed an engine rebuild, the cost was sometimes close to what the car was worth (well almost)! So to save a few bucks people would put a VW motor in instead of a Porsche motor. With the value of 356s going up and up, I doubt too many people would try saving money by doing that these days. With the exception of an Outlaw like Dan mentioned. I have a Type IV in my Outlaw. But a regular Type I in an otherwise "beautiful" 356 would decrease the value quite a bit. 10-12 grand could be about right. If the car is as nice as you say it is, it would be worth 20+ if it had the original #s matching motor.
Robert
05-09-2005, 01:30 AM
#5
The Hoffinator
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decrease in value 10-12 grand? hell thats a few more than the cost of a rebuild, i say just do it right and spend the money and keep the value of your car.
fwiw, i just spent twice what i paid for my car to get my original engine rebuilt. (912 engine is basically the same thing as a 356 SC motor).
fwiw, i recently posted somthing about type 1 engines in 9012s and 356s lately.. so im going to quote from that (sorry feel lazy tonight)...
fwiw, i just spent twice what i paid for my car to get my original engine rebuilt. (912 engine is basically the same thing as a 356 SC motor).
fwiw, i recently posted somthing about type 1 engines in 9012s and 356s lately.. so im going to quote from that (sorry feel lazy tonight)...
i think it was best stated recently on the 912bbs, regarding type 1 engines in 912s.
If it is a type 4, you have a much better chance of having a decnt engine with good power, and longevity. I especially like what Jake Raby has been doing with type 4s.. very well made, long lasting engines, with some great power, at a good price. of course resale value will still be shot to hell, but if you dont plan on selling that shouldnt bother you.
ps.. im not a purist, and im not a pca member. but i do happen to like the 616 engine, and it can be made to be powerful.. of course it has a price (and unfortunetly, i just had to pay the piper, buit im happy with that decision) i still feel its worth it though.. and it will put some fear into a few early 911 owners with a little extra power
not to mention that it was made for more reliability then just power..
These are just my thoughts, not backed up by any hard facts ...
The VW Type 1 was designed to put out anywhere between 36 to 50 HP. The type 616 [912 porsche engine] came from the factory at around 100. I suspect that if you are going to try and get 100+ HP out of a Type 1 you are going to end up spending at least as much as a 616 rebuild, and the costs aren't over yet.
The sheet metal won't fit. The exhaust could be a problem & heat exchangers (if it even has them) won't fit. The throttle linkage is all different. Fuel lines and electrical are probably different. The rear engine mounts aren't even there.
How about the stress on the case and bearings if you double the output of a VW engine? Many of us don't even want to go to a "big bore" on our 616s for concerns of reduced longevity. If driven the same way, the VW engine won't last.
If you do go thru all the work to customize the rear of the car to take this heavily modified VW engine, what you have is either a personal dream car or a another's maintenance nightmare. Where would you get parts? What the heck is in this thing that you just bought from someone else? When I look at some of the hack jobs found in just sticking Weber carbs onto a 616, I shudder to think what putting a VW engine in a 912 could look like.
This isn't to say that it can't be done and done well. It's just that it will be a one-of-a-kind custom job, and only another customizer will appreciate it (but probably not willing to pay for it ... for a customizer the joy is often in the customizing and it's already done). We saw recently on Ebay what happend to the potential value of a 912 when it was finally disclosed in print that it had an "enhanced VW engine".
So, you end up spending as much, maybe more than a 616 rebuild, and you have a unique car that only it's owner can truly love (i.e. you don't have a snowball's chance of ever getting your money back).
The VW Type 1 was designed to put out anywhere between 36 to 50 HP. The type 616 [912 porsche engine] came from the factory at around 100. I suspect that if you are going to try and get 100+ HP out of a Type 1 you are going to end up spending at least as much as a 616 rebuild, and the costs aren't over yet.
The sheet metal won't fit. The exhaust could be a problem & heat exchangers (if it even has them) won't fit. The throttle linkage is all different. Fuel lines and electrical are probably different. The rear engine mounts aren't even there.
How about the stress on the case and bearings if you double the output of a VW engine? Many of us don't even want to go to a "big bore" on our 616s for concerns of reduced longevity. If driven the same way, the VW engine won't last.
If you do go thru all the work to customize the rear of the car to take this heavily modified VW engine, what you have is either a personal dream car or a another's maintenance nightmare. Where would you get parts? What the heck is in this thing that you just bought from someone else? When I look at some of the hack jobs found in just sticking Weber carbs onto a 616, I shudder to think what putting a VW engine in a 912 could look like.
This isn't to say that it can't be done and done well. It's just that it will be a one-of-a-kind custom job, and only another customizer will appreciate it (but probably not willing to pay for it ... for a customizer the joy is often in the customizing and it's already done). We saw recently on Ebay what happend to the potential value of a 912 when it was finally disclosed in print that it had an "enhanced VW engine".
So, you end up spending as much, maybe more than a 616 rebuild, and you have a unique car that only it's owner can truly love (i.e. you don't have a snowball's chance of ever getting your money back).
If it is a type 4, you have a much better chance of having a decnt engine with good power, and longevity. I especially like what Jake Raby has been doing with type 4s.. very well made, long lasting engines, with some great power, at a good price. of course resale value will still be shot to hell, but if you dont plan on selling that shouldnt bother you.
ps.. im not a purist, and im not a pca member. but i do happen to like the 616 engine, and it can be made to be powerful.. of course it has a price (and unfortunetly, i just had to pay the piper, buit im happy with that decision) i still feel its worth it though.. and it will put some fear into a few early 911 owners with a little extra power
not to mention that it was made for more reliability then just power..
05-09-2005, 03:29 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by RJT
Jim,
I don't know if I'd call it common. A few years back if a 356 needed an engine rebuild, the cost was sometimes close to what the car was worth (well almost)! So to save a few bucks people would put a VW motor in instead of a Porsche motor. With the value of 356s going up and up, I doubt too many people would try saving money by doing that these days. With the exception of an Outlaw like Dan mentioned. I have a Type IV in my Outlaw. But a regular Type I in an otherwise "beautiful" 356 would decrease the value quite a bit. 10-12 grand could be about right. If the car is as nice as you say it is, it would be worth 20+ if it had the original #s matching motor.
Robert
I don't know if I'd call it common. A few years back if a 356 needed an engine rebuild, the cost was sometimes close to what the car was worth (well almost)! So to save a few bucks people would put a VW motor in instead of a Porsche motor. With the value of 356s going up and up, I doubt too many people would try saving money by doing that these days. With the exception of an Outlaw like Dan mentioned. I have a Type IV in my Outlaw. But a regular Type I in an otherwise "beautiful" 356 would decrease the value quite a bit. 10-12 grand could be about right. If the car is as nice as you say it is, it would be worth 20+ if it had the original #s matching motor.
Robert
Thx again...
Jim
05-09-2005, 03:41 AM
#7
The Hoffinator
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probably. i had my motor just built for about 8k. i dont think a gear box rebuild will cost as much. then again i dont know how much type 741 gear boxes go for. i know a 901 gear box could be rebuilt for 3k.. but thats a different beast. regardless, i bet both could be done for less than 15.
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05-09-2005, 10:03 AM
#8
Drifting
Hi Harry...you can't estimate a tranny rebuild cost unless you open the box and look inside...mine was rebuilt for $1,000...just new synchros and 4th gear...a very bad one could cost a way more. Surprise Surprise!!!! As far as the 356 with the VW engine...in 2004 I remember one being for sale the whole year all over the Internet and it's probably is still there...one thing is an Outlaw with a hot, Raby's style, type IV engine...another thing is a "vanilla" 356 with a regular type I VW motor... it sounds bad to me...buy the car and then buy an already rebuilt engine...many times you find them at the registry magazine for $4 or $5K...even Duane Spencer's ones at reasonably prices...it's cheaper than to rebuild...take care...
05-09-2005, 12:31 PM
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Harry......"decrease in value 10-12 grand?".....No, I typed that kinda goofy. I didn't mean that would be the decrease in value. I meant that's what the car would be worth.
Jim..... I like your idea of replacing the VW motor with the "real thing". You will be happier with the car and make it more valuable. Not that there is anything wrong with VWs, but I agree with Harrys thoughts.
And I agree with Pedro too. You just don't know what a tranny will cost until you open it up. BTW, I spent close to ten grand on my 65s motor rebuild.
R
Jim..... I like your idea of replacing the VW motor with the "real thing". You will be happier with the car and make it more valuable. Not that there is anything wrong with VWs, but I agree with Harrys thoughts.
And I agree with Pedro too. You just don't know what a tranny will cost until you open it up. BTW, I spent close to ten grand on my 65s motor rebuild.
R
05-09-2005, 05:51 PM
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Thx everyone for the follow-up. The VW engine, while, OK, would probably bother the hell out of me and if I were to purchase this car I wouldn't be happy until I had the real 356 engine in the car. I have some calls out now getting some pricing information here in Portland. So more on this one later...again, thank you for your thoughts and reasoning...much appreciated.
Jim
Jim
05-09-2005, 08:05 PM
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Jim,
When my Mom decided to divorce my Dad, he had the original Super engine out of the '56, running a VW engine. 3 or 4 years later, he found a '59 that had been rolled once ( there's a neat story there! ), we went and fetched it, pulled the engine and tranny from the '59, and put both in the '56. And That's still in the car.
Unfortunately for me, it's "just" a normal, and not the original Super, and when I went to pick it up, the engine was seized up.
A few months after getting it home, I found what I thought was a bargain, for a 912 engine AND tranny, since sold the tranny, and am rebuilding the 912 engine.
The main point of my post to you tho', is to ask if you're a member of the 356 Registry? In most of their mag editions, there's a breaker out your way..... And I don't mean that derogatorily....
The second point, is that putting a VW engine into a 356, is not that difficult, it bolts right up to the "A" tranny easily, heck, I know of at least 6 engines I helpped Dad with! HA! There was even one time, just for grits and shins, we plugged the Super engine into a '60 VW bus! Quickest 0-60 I'd ever seen, up to that point!
When my Mom decided to divorce my Dad, he had the original Super engine out of the '56, running a VW engine. 3 or 4 years later, he found a '59 that had been rolled once ( there's a neat story there! ), we went and fetched it, pulled the engine and tranny from the '59, and put both in the '56. And That's still in the car.
Unfortunately for me, it's "just" a normal, and not the original Super, and when I went to pick it up, the engine was seized up.
A few months after getting it home, I found what I thought was a bargain, for a 912 engine AND tranny, since sold the tranny, and am rebuilding the 912 engine.
The main point of my post to you tho', is to ask if you're a member of the 356 Registry? In most of their mag editions, there's a breaker out your way..... And I don't mean that derogatorily....
The second point, is that putting a VW engine into a 356, is not that difficult, it bolts right up to the "A" tranny easily, heck, I know of at least 6 engines I helpped Dad with! HA! There was even one time, just for grits and shins, we plugged the Super engine into a '60 VW bus! Quickest 0-60 I'd ever seen, up to that point!
05-09-2005, 09:35 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Brett Rickman
Jim,
When my Mom decided to divorce my Dad, he had the original Super engine out of the '56, running a VW engine. 3 or 4 years later, he found a '59 that had been rolled once ( there's a neat story there! ), we went and fetched it, pulled the engine and tranny from the '59, and put both in the '56. And That's still in the car.
Unfortunately for me, it's "just" a normal, and not the original Super, and when I went to pick it up, the engine was seized up.
A few months after getting it home, I found what I thought was a bargain, for a 912 engine AND tranny, since sold the tranny, and am rebuilding the 912 engine.
The main point of my post to you tho', is to ask if you're a member of the 356 Registry? In most of their mag editions, there's a breaker out your way..... And I don't mean that derogatorily....
The second point, is that putting a VW engine into a 356, is not that difficult, it bolts right up to the "A" tranny easily, heck, I know of at least 6 engines I helpped Dad with! HA! There was even one time, just for grits and shins, we plugged the Super engine into a '60 VW bus! Quickest 0-60 I'd ever seen, up to that point!
When my Mom decided to divorce my Dad, he had the original Super engine out of the '56, running a VW engine. 3 or 4 years later, he found a '59 that had been rolled once ( there's a neat story there! ), we went and fetched it, pulled the engine and tranny from the '59, and put both in the '56. And That's still in the car.
Unfortunately for me, it's "just" a normal, and not the original Super, and when I went to pick it up, the engine was seized up.
A few months after getting it home, I found what I thought was a bargain, for a 912 engine AND tranny, since sold the tranny, and am rebuilding the 912 engine.
The main point of my post to you tho', is to ask if you're a member of the 356 Registry? In most of their mag editions, there's a breaker out your way..... And I don't mean that derogatorily....
The second point, is that putting a VW engine into a 356, is not that difficult, it bolts right up to the "A" tranny easily, heck, I know of at least 6 engines I helpped Dad with! HA! There was even one time, just for grits and shins, we plugged the Super engine into a '60 VW bus! Quickest 0-60 I'd ever seen, up to that point!
Thx for the post. I am currently not a member of the 356 Registry, though I am familiar with it. I'm sorry. I do not understand what you mean by 'breaker'. Could you tell me what that means.
Thx...
Jim
05-09-2005, 11:34 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by Brett Rickman
Hi Jim,
I believe it is a British term, but I use it, as for an auto wrecking yard
They "break up" wrecked units, and save usable parts for sale....
I believe it is a British term, but I use it, as for an auto wrecking yard
They "break up" wrecked units, and save usable parts for sale....
Jim
