E36 M3 vs 986 Boxster S for DE
03-25-2016, 01:01 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
E36 M3 vs 986 Boxster S for DE
Hi friends,
Sorry for another "vs" type post but I need your help with my final decision for a DE car.
I've decided to go for something mostly stock to make it easier to resell. If I get hardcore into racing, I'll swap into a dedicated race car later on. Thanks all for talking me out of buying a full-on Spec Miata and Spec Boxster.
A well-kept E36 M3 goes for $9K and 986s go for $11K in my area, close enough not to matter. Besides, my sense is the M3 would need suspension upgrades and chassis reinforcement, whereas the 986s is essentially ready to go.
Here is my pros/cons, currently leaning toward M3. Also note, my DD is a BMW M235 convertible, so 1) already have a fun convertible and 2) this 2nd car will pretty much only be used on track and driving to/from.
M3 pros: Cheaper to run/maintain (but by how much?), hardtop feels safer, more aftermarket mods, room for schlepping tires/tools to track, could supercharge to 400hp if I get bored
M3 cons: 400 lbs bigger/heavier, will be jealous of GTS3 race cars
Boxster pros: Lower, "open wheel" driving position feels racier, engine behind your ears!, could start making friends w/ PCA
Boxster cons: Cost to run (is it that bad?), IMS/RMS paranoia, wife would prefer I not race in a drop top
Thanks for your opinions folks.
Sorry for another "vs" type post but I need your help with my final decision for a DE car.
I've decided to go for something mostly stock to make it easier to resell. If I get hardcore into racing, I'll swap into a dedicated race car later on. Thanks all for talking me out of buying a full-on Spec Miata and Spec Boxster.
A well-kept E36 M3 goes for $9K and 986s go for $11K in my area, close enough not to matter. Besides, my sense is the M3 would need suspension upgrades and chassis reinforcement, whereas the 986s is essentially ready to go.
Here is my pros/cons, currently leaning toward M3. Also note, my DD is a BMW M235 convertible, so 1) already have a fun convertible and 2) this 2nd car will pretty much only be used on track and driving to/from.
M3 pros: Cheaper to run/maintain (but by how much?), hardtop feels safer, more aftermarket mods, room for schlepping tires/tools to track, could supercharge to 400hp if I get bored
M3 cons: 400 lbs bigger/heavier, will be jealous of GTS3 race cars
Boxster pros: Lower, "open wheel" driving position feels racier, engine behind your ears!, could start making friends w/ PCA
Boxster cons: Cost to run (is it that bad?), IMS/RMS paranoia, wife would prefer I not race in a drop top
Thanks for your opinions folks.
03-25-2016, 01:25 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
I know zip about running a BMW on the track but from what my past street BMWs have cost to keep up I doubt the M3 will be a lot cheaper to maintain, the key is how much work will you be doing and how familiar are you with working on either (assume 0 for the Boxster)?
Drive both, pick the one you like, then go to some DE's. Most PCA regions allow any brand of car to run, I would stick mainly with PCA due to the enormous amount of events run and to start making new friends there, at least at first.
Drive both, pick the one you like, then go to some DE's. Most PCA regions allow any brand of car to run, I would stick mainly with PCA due to the enormous amount of events run and to start making new friends there, at least at first.
03-25-2016, 01:38 PM
#3
Street car going to the track? Give me a roof, all other decisions are secondary.
Again, try to find a car that's already setup for HPDE because the slow build even to track readiness and safety will surprise you.
Again, try to find a car that's already setup for HPDE because the slow build even to track readiness and safety will surprise you.
03-25-2016, 01:57 PM
#4
Like for like, an E36 M3 is going to cost less than a Boxter. The shortcomings of the E36 platform for track use are well known and fixes are documented. Running costs are just a bit more than a Miata and mechanical complexity is similar.
The Boxter IMS issue is real. Blow a Boxter motor and the economics go completely out the window. Blow a S52, and a running, decent condition motor is about $2K.
Baring catastrophic engine failures, the running costs between a Boxter and E36 M3 are likely very comparable. They use practically the same brake pads and tires. Oil is likely the same as is other consumables. But money shift or otherwise blow a motor, and the Boxter is not going to be cheap to fix.
I like Boxters and think they are fun cars on the track, but they are more expensive to track.
BTW, if you are new to the track, you won't need 400HP for quite some time. Also, consider a Miata - there is a reason they are popular at the track.
-Mike
The Boxter IMS issue is real. Blow a Boxter motor and the economics go completely out the window. Blow a S52, and a running, decent condition motor is about $2K.
Baring catastrophic engine failures, the running costs between a Boxter and E36 M3 are likely very comparable. They use practically the same brake pads and tires. Oil is likely the same as is other consumables. But money shift or otherwise blow a motor, and the Boxter is not going to be cheap to fix.
I like Boxters and think they are fun cars on the track, but they are more expensive to track.
BTW, if you are new to the track, you won't need 400HP for quite some time. Also, consider a Miata - there is a reason they are popular at the track.
-Mike
03-25-2016, 02:59 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for input. Please keep it coming.
Miata is definitely out. I reflexively yawn every time I look at one.
I know nothing about car maintaince, but am looking to learn. Whichever car I buy will be the first car I change my own oil in.....
I've driven both on short test drives in cities, but it's hard to really tell the difference in character between the two. None of the sellers I met yet have really welcomes a long test drive on twisties to wring out the engine. Hence why I'm looking to learn from other's experience.
Miata is definitely out. I reflexively yawn every time I look at one.
I know nothing about car maintaince, but am looking to learn. Whichever car I buy will be the first car I change my own oil in.....
I've driven both on short test drives in cities, but it's hard to really tell the difference in character between the two. None of the sellers I met yet have really welcomes a long test drive on twisties to wring out the engine. Hence why I'm looking to learn from other's experience.
03-25-2016, 03:01 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
E36 M3 all the way. Besides the obvious advantages of having a fixed roof, it can haul all your gear to the track. There's plenty of cockpit room. There's a very healthy aftermarket for them for parts and a good knowledge base for DIY wrenching.
They're easy to work on too, parts don't cost an arm and a leg. Nice, neutral car, enough power to be interesting and they punch far above their weight on the track...
They're easy to work on too, parts don't cost an arm and a leg. Nice, neutral car, enough power to be interesting and they punch far above their weight on the track...
03-25-2016, 03:50 PM
#7
E36 M3 all the way. Besides the obvious advantages of having a fixed roof, it can haul all your gear to the track. There's plenty of cockpit room. There's a very healthy aftermarket for them for parts and a good knowledge base for DIY wrenching.
They're easy to work on too, parts don't cost an arm and a leg. Nice, neutral car, enough power to be interesting and they punch far above their weight on the track...
They're easy to work on too, parts don't cost an arm and a leg. Nice, neutral car, enough power to be interesting and they punch far above their weight on the track...
. Go to the track with an extra set of tires, tools, spares, and gear - and this is with a rear bolt in roll bar. It is a good car to learn how to wrench on and DIY mechanical work is one of the only ways to control costs in this crazy hobby. Driven properly, it can keep up with any run group.One thing about the Boxter though is the way that car can rotate. Overdo it and it will spin like a top.
Understand about the Miata, as I felt that way at one time. Then I drove one on the track. Think raw, adult go-cart. And while the E36 can chase down some pretty expensive stuff, doing that in a "POS Chick Car" is all that much more satisfying. Miatas have got to be the best bang for the buck option these days at the track.
-Mike
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03-25-2016, 04:05 PM
#8
I've driven both on short test drives in cities, but it's hard to really tell the difference in character between the two. None of the sellers I met yet have really welcomes a long test drive on twisties to wring out the engine. Hence why I'm looking to learn from other's experience.
Here are some bullet points on what to look for in an street E36 M3 in addition to the typical used car stuff. There is no need for a hot dog test drive:
- Make sure it starts properly cold. Do not have the seller warm it up before you get there.
- Open the hood. Look for oil leakage. Look for white spots anywhere under the hood and around the radiator. This indicates coolant leaking. Check the coolant level. Check the oil.
- The motor should start easily. Valve tap may happen, but it should be very brief at start and quiet down immediately.
- On the test drive the suspension should feel tight. The steering precise and point and shoot. Get up to about 45 MPH and get firmly on the brakes. The car should slow down well and stay in a straight line.
- Get up to a steady 45MPH in 3rd gear. Roll into the throttle firmly. The car should just go faster and in a straight line. If it feels squirrely (you will know), then rear end bushings need attention.
- Transmission may feel a bit rubbery if it is stock. Clutch should feel good and car should shift smoothly.
- Get on a highway and get it up to the speed limit. Ride should be smooth with no shuttering.
- After the test drive, get down and look under the car for leaks. Common leaks on old E36s are CV joint boots, power steering, oil filter housing by the block, and coolant.
- With the hood open and engine running, check the coolant tank for bubbles - bubble here indicated a failed headgasket. Wet coolant with no obvious source is also sign of a headgasket.
- Smell for burning oil and leaking coolant. A car in good shape will not smell like either one.
- Check tire wear for evenness. A small bit of extra wear on the inside of the front and rear is ok, but it should be barely perceptible.
- If you care, check the AC. The AC in these cars is weak.
- Pro tip: run your finger around all the body panel edges, i.e. around the hood, doors, and trunk. They should feel absolutely smooth. If you feel roughness, the body panel has been painted. This trick works very well to detect bodywork.
-Mike
03-25-2016, 04:07 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
I don't fit in miata's. I look over the windshield header on them. They're also incredibly slow since I live at altitude. When you don't start with very much power, then have to take a 20% hit, that results in constantly watching your mirrors and sticking out hand out the window to give the "pass" signal.
No thanks...
No thanks...
03-25-2016, 10:46 PM
#10
I have an E36 and E46 M3 and a 986 S. The 986 is my favorite on track - with the top down and arm restraints on. I guess its just a hold over from my days of racing sports racers, but that's the way I like it. To each his own.
In my opinion every E36 and E46 understeers like a pig until you fix the front camber and use a "square" set-up. The 986 S understeers badly too, but maybe not down to pig standards. The 986 can be made to handle well with a bit of camber and sway bar upgrades, but if you get the formula wrong it can bite you with snap oversteer. I have never seen any such similar sensitivity when tuning handling on the BMW's - they always understeer to some extent.
My 986 has been very reliable through 6 years of pretty hard use, but any car that is used like this can and will eventually have an engine failure. Yes, even the hallowed air cooled machines. The BMW will no doubt be cheaper to fix when that happens.
If you want to find a car that has already been prepped, a prepped BMW is sure to be much cheaper as there are lots of young guns who tune on their BMW's, and later sell them with little or no added value. In contrast, a Porsche, any Porsche is the only car I know of that is worth more after it it stripped and prepped for track duty.
OP, you better check your size in a 986 again - the cockpit (pardon the pun) was made for mostly short legged women. If you don't fit in a Miata, I would be surprised if you fit well in a 986.
In my opinion every E36 and E46 understeers like a pig until you fix the front camber and use a "square" set-up. The 986 S understeers badly too, but maybe not down to pig standards. The 986 can be made to handle well with a bit of camber and sway bar upgrades, but if you get the formula wrong it can bite you with snap oversteer. I have never seen any such similar sensitivity when tuning handling on the BMW's - they always understeer to some extent.
My 986 has been very reliable through 6 years of pretty hard use, but any car that is used like this can and will eventually have an engine failure. Yes, even the hallowed air cooled machines. The BMW will no doubt be cheaper to fix when that happens.
If you want to find a car that has already been prepped, a prepped BMW is sure to be much cheaper as there are lots of young guns who tune on their BMW's, and later sell them with little or no added value. In contrast, a Porsche, any Porsche is the only car I know of that is worth more after it it stripped and prepped for track duty.
OP, you better check your size in a 986 again - the cockpit (pardon the pun) was made for mostly short legged women. If you don't fit in a Miata, I would be surprised if you fit well in a 986.
03-26-2016, 08:42 PM
#11
I posted a few months back about a 996 vs e36 M3 for track use. I ended up buying an E36 M3 and am in process of restoring it to like new condition for the major track-related system of the car. While parts are plentiful and cheap, there is a lot of maintenance/updates that need to be done to make a ~20 year old car be top notch. Search for my thread to see the common recommendations on how to make the car track worthy.
I am about 60% done after doing a total teardown of the car. It's been a learning process and often quite frustrating (nothing like having an "oem" bushing split in half while you are installing it). My first event is in 4 weeks and I am hoping to get it on the road by then; I will update you what I think
BTW... if you are really going to go with an E36, you may be better off getting a much cheaper car because no matter what, you will want to do a fair bit of updates to the car. To put in new rear shocks and reinforced shock mounts, you pretty much have to gut the entire trunk of the car. Are you really going to put that interior back together? If you want safety, at a minimum, you lose the rear when you put in a bar like the Kirk racing bar. At that point who cares about a nice interior?
Otherwise consider a built car. At this point, I am easily at that price point. The only caveat is that *everything* on my car now that is important has been updated. Figure 18k+ with tools, a high-end suspension, and a total overhaul and a starting point at 9k. I also needed help with welds/reinforcement work.
I am about 60% done after doing a total teardown of the car. It's been a learning process and often quite frustrating (nothing like having an "oem" bushing split in half while you are installing it). My first event is in 4 weeks and I am hoping to get it on the road by then; I will update you what I think
BTW... if you are really going to go with an E36, you may be better off getting a much cheaper car because no matter what, you will want to do a fair bit of updates to the car. To put in new rear shocks and reinforced shock mounts, you pretty much have to gut the entire trunk of the car. Are you really going to put that interior back together? If you want safety, at a minimum, you lose the rear when you put in a bar like the Kirk racing bar. At that point who cares about a nice interior?
Otherwise consider a built car. At this point, I am easily at that price point. The only caveat is that *everything* on my car now that is important has been updated. Figure 18k+ with tools, a high-end suspension, and a total overhaul and a starting point at 9k. I also needed help with welds/reinforcement work.
03-26-2016, 09:04 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I don't normally comment on this type of thread, but if I were asked what is the most amazing track car you can buy for the money, it would be an E36 M3. PM me if you want details. I have owned and raced an E36 M3, E46 M3 and Cayman S.
03-26-2016, 09:06 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Like for like, an E36 M3 is going to cost less than a Boxter. The shortcomings of the E36 platform for track use are well known and fixes are documented. Running costs are just a bit more than a Miata and mechanical complexity is similar.
The Boxter IMS issue is real. Blow a Boxter motor and the economics go completely out the window. Blow a S52, and a running, decent condition motor is about $2K.
Baring catastrophic engine failures, the running costs between a Boxter and E36 M3 are likely very comparable. They use practically the same brake pads and tires. Oil is likely the same as is other consumables. But money shift or otherwise blow a motor, and the Boxter is not going to be cheap to fix.
I like Boxters and think they are fun cars on the track, but they are more expensive to track.
BTW, if you are new to the track, you won't need 400HP for quite some time. Also, consider a Miata - there is a reason they are popular at the track.
-Mike
The Boxter IMS issue is real. Blow a Boxter motor and the economics go completely out the window. Blow a S52, and a running, decent condition motor is about $2K.
Baring catastrophic engine failures, the running costs between a Boxter and E36 M3 are likely very comparable. They use practically the same brake pads and tires. Oil is likely the same as is other consumables. But money shift or otherwise blow a motor, and the Boxter is not going to be cheap to fix.
I like Boxters and think they are fun cars on the track, but they are more expensive to track.
BTW, if you are new to the track, you won't need 400HP for quite some time. Also, consider a Miata - there is a reason they are popular at the track.
-Mike
Boxster are great cars to track and very stable when setup correctly. Most I see have to much rear toe and that's why they rotate so easily. Spend the money on a competent alignment and they are no worse than any other car out there.
I tracked my e90 M3 several times last year. After spending $5k on a brake upgrade (needed as they are so small stock) and $3k on better shocks/springs and sway bars it was nice but felt wooden co,pared to any Boxster I have driven. And it would run hot every run group and emptied it's steering bottle several times from to much heat in the steering system.
Point is, all cars have their deficiencies and all can be great on track. Personally, the Porsche is a much better experience and I personally have not seen a cost advantage/disadvantage to either.
03-26-2016, 09:55 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I did see your thread about the 996 vs M3 and it helped contribute to my decision to go with the M3.
I ended up going with a 115K mile car, $9K with Dinan intake and exhaust and some other upgraded bits, probably in better shape than I need for a track car, but I figure I may be able to recover some money by selling the interior when it comes time to strip the thing. Not a steal, but mechanic owned and engine pulls hard.
I'll have to go back through that 996 vs M3 thread to plan the order of my build. I'd like to do it slowly, so I can feel the impact of each improvement, this being my first dedicated track car.
I'll likely start another thread on issues to tackle and what order. Should I be doing that in Bimmerforums, or is it cool to get into that here at Rennlist? Sure seems like there are plenty of BMW owners/trackers here...
I ended up going with a 115K mile car, $9K with Dinan intake and exhaust and some other upgraded bits, probably in better shape than I need for a track car, but I figure I may be able to recover some money by selling the interior when it comes time to strip the thing. Not a steal, but mechanic owned and engine pulls hard.
I'll have to go back through that 996 vs M3 thread to plan the order of my build. I'd like to do it slowly, so I can feel the impact of each improvement, this being my first dedicated track car.
I'll likely start another thread on issues to tackle and what order. Should I be doing that in Bimmerforums, or is it cool to get into that here at Rennlist? Sure seems like there are plenty of BMW owners/trackers here...
I posted a few months back about a 996 vs e36 M3 for track use. I ended up buying an E36 M3 and am in process of restoring it to like new condition for the major track-related system of the car. While parts are plentiful and cheap, there is a lot of maintenance/updates that need to be done to make a ~20 year old car be top notch. Search for my thread to see the common recommendations on how to make the car track worthy.
I am about 60% done after doing a total teardown of the car. It's been a learning process and often quite frustrating (nothing like having an "oem" bushing split in half while you are installing it). My first event is in 4 weeks and I am hoping to get it on the road by then; I will update you what I think
BTW... if you are really going to go with an E36, you may be better off getting a much cheaper car because no matter what, you will want to do a fair bit of updates to the car. To put in new rear shocks and reinforced shock mounts, you pretty much have to gut the entire trunk of the car. Are you really going to put that interior back together? If you want safety, at a minimum, you lose the rear when you put in a bar like the Kirk racing bar. At that point who cares about a nice interior?
Otherwise consider a built car. At this point, I am easily at that price point. The only caveat is that *everything* on my car now that is important has been updated. Figure 18k+ with tools, a high-end suspension, and a total overhaul and a starting point at 9k. I also needed help with welds/reinforcement work.
I am about 60% done after doing a total teardown of the car. It's been a learning process and often quite frustrating (nothing like having an "oem" bushing split in half while you are installing it). My first event is in 4 weeks and I am hoping to get it on the road by then; I will update you what I think
BTW... if you are really going to go with an E36, you may be better off getting a much cheaper car because no matter what, you will want to do a fair bit of updates to the car. To put in new rear shocks and reinforced shock mounts, you pretty much have to gut the entire trunk of the car. Are you really going to put that interior back together? If you want safety, at a minimum, you lose the rear when you put in a bar like the Kirk racing bar. At that point who cares about a nice interior?
Otherwise consider a built car. At this point, I am easily at that price point. The only caveat is that *everything* on my car now that is important has been updated. Figure 18k+ with tools, a high-end suspension, and a total overhaul and a starting point at 9k. I also needed help with welds/reinforcement work.
03-27-2016, 11:47 AM
#15
Congratulations on the car and I hope you enjoy it.
As for the forums, I found the most helpful people to be here oddly enough. A bunch of people have either owned E36 M3s or currently own them and are very passionate. Bimmerforums probably has the best DIY help and M3forum has some helpful people as well.
As for doing the work yourself, I find that most DIYs and the Bentley manual oversimplify the work, especially if you have never done it before. They may show the process on how to remove something (e.g., like a control arm) on the passenger side; the driver side requires a lot more work (e.g., I couldn't get my wrench in there without removing/moving the power steering system). Also, little things like pushing in bushings can be a nightmare. The AKG front diff bushing apparently does not go in all the way... I finally took it to a shop who also tried to push it in all the way and couldn't. Another M3 up on a lift also had a gap. This is the stuff no one talks about and if you try to do things the seemingly "right way", you can mess it up and waste hours of your time trying to fix it. Also be wary of some OEM parts, as the quality is not the same.
Ask for help; most people love this car and will gladly impart advice! The fixes are pretty clear and mostly in my thread. I would definitely make sure the cooling is up to date, the shocks/struts are not leaking, and no cracks in the guibo and bushings. Those are the basics. After that, the oil pump nut fix, RTAB pocket reinforcements, and rear sway bar reinforcements are good to do as well. Also check your brakes as well; the rubber on mine was very much deteriorated and requires a rebuild. Front control arm bushings (FCAB) are common failure points as well. On my 97 with 131k, pretty much every bushing had a rip/tear in it and required replacement.
As for the forums, I found the most helpful people to be here oddly enough. A bunch of people have either owned E36 M3s or currently own them and are very passionate. Bimmerforums probably has the best DIY help and M3forum has some helpful people as well.
As for doing the work yourself, I find that most DIYs and the Bentley manual oversimplify the work, especially if you have never done it before. They may show the process on how to remove something (e.g., like a control arm) on the passenger side; the driver side requires a lot more work (e.g., I couldn't get my wrench in there without removing/moving the power steering system). Also, little things like pushing in bushings can be a nightmare. The AKG front diff bushing apparently does not go in all the way... I finally took it to a shop who also tried to push it in all the way and couldn't. Another M3 up on a lift also had a gap. This is the stuff no one talks about and if you try to do things the seemingly "right way", you can mess it up and waste hours of your time trying to fix it. Also be wary of some OEM parts, as the quality is not the same.
Ask for help; most people love this car and will gladly impart advice! The fixes are pretty clear and mostly in my thread. I would definitely make sure the cooling is up to date, the shocks/struts are not leaking, and no cracks in the guibo and bushings. Those are the basics. After that, the oil pump nut fix, RTAB pocket reinforcements, and rear sway bar reinforcements are good to do as well. Also check your brakes as well; the rubber on mine was very much deteriorated and requires a rebuild. Front control arm bushings (FCAB) are common failure points as well. On my 97 with 131k, pretty much every bushing had a rip/tear in it and required replacement.