Flat6 Innovations

It will all come in time. The book can't share it all, there will still be things that require hands on instruction... I am instructing my engine rebuild school this week and we have 20 attendees inbound for what will be another awesome class!

All engine projects require attention to detail, and of course, you assume nothing and quantify everything, no matter who tells you that something will or will not work. The mindset of an engine builder is a very odd thing, and you either have it, or you don't.

Schnell Gelb

The new "Interchange" lifters arrived. They are physically identical to the overpriced(?) Porsche originals. There were two issues. Fed-Ex screwed up the International Priority shipment(what is happening to them-they often fail these days?) .The other is that each lifter is packed in an oil-filled plastic jar with a push fit lid. During depressurization and rough handling some of the oil leaked out and saturated the box with oil.No biggie ,but don't be alarmed if the box is a bit soggy.
Every dimension I could measure including the crown seem identical to the original.
I'll let y'all know if it sounds like a diesel when it fires up.

txhokie4life

Thanks for the info -- nice to have a potential more economical source.

keep us posted,

Mike

Schnell Gelb

I am surprised no other Rennlister had done this research. It took a lot of digging.I even contacted INA (futile).
That makes me concerned the Interchange is invalid. The $700 saving is a big enough saving to have encouraged others to have tried.Perhaps they just weren't sharing.
So if anyone uses my Interchange info - do so knowing it is unproven - yet.

San Rensho

So did the new lifters work?

Macster

My take is it is a rare event to replace the lifters. I know of only one car, a 2002 996 that I came across years ago -- shorlty after I bought my 2002 Boxster -- at a dealer's lot that had lifters replaced because one got noisy. The car barely had 2K miles on it -- which is what caught my eye on the window sticker -- from new and prompted me to inquire about the car but the owner was so upset that his car needed any internal engine work he didn't want it back and the dealer accommodated him somehow.

The dealer replaced all lifters (I do not know if it was all intake, or exhaust, or both intake and exhaust lifters) under warranty using of course the lifters supplied by the factory.

I have heard of other cars in with problems that require lifter replacement and again factory lifters are used.

'course give it time and lifter replacement will become a required periodic service recommended every 40K miles or whenever the clutch is done, along with the water pump, RMS/IMSB, chain tensioners, chain guides, VarioCam solenoids and actuators, cams, oil pump, AOS, and all the rest. Then your research might pay off as everyone will know if the lifters you tried worked or not and can decide which lifters to use accordingly.

This depends in part that if the lifters do work the lifter maker doesn't change the lifter in any way so that a year or two more down the road if someone follows your lead, he gets the same lifters are you got.

Schnell Gelb

Over on the 996 Forum there is more chatter about lifter issues. The BMW substitute was documented years ago but there was no follow-up so it is unreliable as a recommendation. I would need at least 5,000-10,000 miles to justify even a conditional claim that the $10 lifters worked.
What I do not know is if these are the updated lifters or not - nor even what that fabled update involved technically. Jake Raby seems to know.I presume INA and Porsche do too.Probably some BMWpeople too.Lots of cars are listed as "Direct Interchange" -see my previous posts & Yoyo parts.

flyingpenguin

Sorry for catching on to this discussion this late.

Replaced lifters with the BMW parts (all 24) on a 2000 996 that had a 2006 replacement motor after only 40k miles. Lifters were noisy at track events with elevated engine / oil temps. Even a 50 weight oil would not remedy ticking after a track session. This was solved by the lifter replacement and engine ran quiet, both on track and daily usage.

On a 2.5 M96 rebuild (1999 986 with 140k miles), I checked all lifters as the engine was ticking at idle. Some lifters had stuck adjusters and replaced them with good ones from my inventory. Only criterium for determining good or bad that I applied, was whether the adjuster would move freely when compressed between thumb and index finger. Not very scientific, but after 10k miles on the rebuild running M1 0W40 this engine is quiet as ever. She's been on track only once since the rebuild and engine would be noisy with elevated oil temps. Probably something that would be remedied by a thicker oil.

Just another data point..

Schnell Gelb

That is a great data point! And coming from someone with your credentials is rather more credible than my amateurish research.
Mr.Penguin,
I am impressed that you did the rebuild. Did you post a write-up of your build anywhere for the noobs to study?
I used the same Lifter test that you did. At $40 each lifter it made me wince each time I found a doubtful one. At $10 each why bother? After 90,000 miles just replace them all !
I now am ashamed of having ridiculed BMW owners (Break My Wallet & Bring Money With) - since their parts seem to have a much lower mark-up than Porsche !

DennisAN

Speaking of parts cost....

For my base 986, Sachs makes the clutch disc and pressure plate. You can purchase these Sachs parts in three different boxes.

A Sachs clutch in a Porsche box is $700.
A Sachs clutch in a Sachs box is $500.
A Sachs clutch in a LUK box is $300. Same damn parts.

The Sachs clutch disc I put in my 986 had the exact same part number as the original factory one I took out.

I come from a Miata background. The Miata world is somewhat more "cough" price-sensitive than the Porsche world. Some clean out their hydraulic lifters http://www.miata.net/garage/hla/cleaning.html Others substitute new Kia units as they are cheaper.

Schnell Gelb

Hi Dennis,
I have had Miatas for many years and concur with you.Currently have an NB se & an NC prht.
The Interchange list I linked to shows our lifters also crossover to KIA that you mentioned. Regardless of brand, the BGA part is the cheapest I found on the Interchange list.It was a pity(& expense) to have had to import them from England !

DennisAN

Too bad Parts Dinosaur doesn't sell the larger 33mm lifters. His price for the 30mm lifters is $6.95 each. http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product974.html

When did Porsche start using hydraulic lifters? I can see the advantages for an air cooled engine. But with a water cooled engine, running at a more constant temperature, I'd think going with shimmed solid lifters could be better.

Macster

My recollection is Porsche went with zero-lash (hydraulic) lifters in 1994 to reduce maintenance costs and reduce emissions during warm up phase.

Shimmed lifters is a pain. I can't recall the brand now but I remember when one major motorcycle company offered an engine with shimmed lifters instead of adjustable ones and the hue and cry from the motorcycle community was totally against this type.

About the noise of mechanical lifters: BMW owners complained mightily about the noise of mechanical lifters and the trouble and expense of having to have mechanical valve lifters adjusted (every 15K miles IIRC). BMW techs were reportedly against the switch from mechanical lifters to hydraulic lifters. The word was so to speak, you can pay us now to adjust the mechanical lifters every so often (15K miles?) or pay us later when the hydraulic lifters get noisy and need to be replaced.

BMW customers got their hydraulic lifters and sure enough after a while noisy hydraulic lifters is a common complaint. Which is one reason why I wonder why some Porsche owners are are fixated on BMW lifters as the cure for noisy Porsche hydraulic lifters.

Schnell Gelb

From my research and the many links provided in this and previous threads, there are no BMW hydraulic lifters, nor any Porsche ones because they are made by OEM suppliers like INA . So the BMW & Porsche lifters have the same INA part number and the same propensity to fail.
The fixation is a question of price of the parts ($40 vs $10 ea. x 24) and damage caused by jammed or leaky lifters.Then there is the enigma of the 'upgraded' part number with unknown differences. Just my unqualified guess. Why some fail and others don't is an interesting issue. The 'end of the line' theory has been dismissed by others to some degree. My jammed lifters were full of clean oil.
Comparing the new lifters to the old ones, I can understand it is easy to confuse a tight new tappet action with that of a used(90k miles for mine) but still very serviceable item. My amateurish test was :if I can compress the tappet with my thumb,it is worn .If I can't compress it using a big drill press,it is jammed.
After 90k miles ,for only $10 ea.- why bother testing and speculating? Just fit new ones x 24.And if Dennis prevails we'll be down to $7 ea.
Next up , alternatives to those expensive bolts -microencapsulated and not.

Flat6 Innovations

Hydraulic lifters in the last generation aircooled engines made no sense.. It was the first step toward creating a 911 that would require less maintenance and appeal to leasing companies and etc more favorably.

We've been using solid lifters in our "X" engine line since 2008. It takes a special breed to accept a modern car that requires both valve lash service as well as tensioner lash service.

Micro- encapsulated bolts and etc are not a problem, we got tired of buying the entire Porsche world supply of them and had them made a while back. Thousands of IMSR kits require 3 each and the world supply would get eaten up once a month, they'd replenish and we'd wipe them out again.

European and Asian vehicles vary "enough" in lobe design, taper and crown radii as a general rule- BTW.