991 GT3...Is PORSCHE becoming Ferrari???
10-11-2015, 04:52 PM
#1
991 GT3...Is PORSCHE becoming Ferrari???
This is a venting post---not meant to flame or blast private parties from maintiing valueable resale values. That being said,
Porsche is trying its best to become Ferrari. It is limting vehicle production to effectively limit the ability of people to own their vehicles. I do not want Porsche to become Ferrari---I think the typical Porsche owner is intelligent, a bit OCD, and a person you would enjoy going on a road trip with----Ferarri owners are typically obsessed with having a car in their garage nobody can afford or own---Porsche owners are driving their cars while Ferrari owners are looking at the resale of their garage queens----
Hey Porsche make some GT3's and GT3 RS's --only the private partiies benefit from this artificial market restriction---Penalize the dealers that charge 25k, 50K, 100K for added mark-up---These dealership practices attract the wronng type of owners and ultimately ruin the image and reputation of the typical 911 owner.
Yes I know a couple Ferrari owners that happen to be nice but they are not driving their cars---Cars are meant to be driven---a PORSCHE is meant to be driven !!!
Porsche is trying its best to become Ferrari. It is limting vehicle production to effectively limit the ability of people to own their vehicles. I do not want Porsche to become Ferrari---I think the typical Porsche owner is intelligent, a bit OCD, and a person you would enjoy going on a road trip with----Ferarri owners are typically obsessed with having a car in their garage nobody can afford or own---Porsche owners are driving their cars while Ferrari owners are looking at the resale of their garage queens----
Hey Porsche make some GT3's and GT3 RS's --only the private partiies benefit from this artificial market restriction---Penalize the dealers that charge 25k, 50K, 100K for added mark-up---These dealership practices attract the wronng type of owners and ultimately ruin the image and reputation of the typical 911 owner.
Yes I know a couple Ferrari owners that happen to be nice but they are not driving their cars---Cars are meant to be driven---a PORSCHE is meant to be driven !!!
10-11-2015, 05:17 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Number one, why would Porsche try and be Ferrari now? They have ALWAYS produce limited "special" cars so the business model in that sense hasn't changed. At least in my opinion. It's just now the market has grown a hundred fold and the demand is getting greater for limited Motorsport cars. And the company in comparison to other manufacturers is still a "boutique" brand, and incapable of building more cars to meet the increased demand.
I disagree 100% in regards to the WRONG type of clients buy cars at over sticker. Then how about the wrong type of Rolex buyer. How about the wrong type of home buyer. There are MANY Porsche LOYALIST that buy Motorsport cars for over sticker because they can and don't want to wait. Or don't want to take a chance at Porsche not building more of a specific model. And penalize the dealers for a capitalist mindset? Hmmmm. Penalize all supermarkets, movie theaters, gas stations, etc. also, as they make a huge profit on products resold. The nice thing about being a consumer is you don't have to buy it if you don't want to. Look we are blessed to be able to own and drive a wonderful marque like Porsche. Anyway I am sure this will get turned into the usual fun thread of bashing. But I hope not as we all come here to relax and have imaginary friends. Have a blessed day.
I disagree 100% in regards to the WRONG type of clients buy cars at over sticker. Then how about the wrong type of Rolex buyer. How about the wrong type of home buyer. There are MANY Porsche LOYALIST that buy Motorsport cars for over sticker because they can and don't want to wait. Or don't want to take a chance at Porsche not building more of a specific model. And penalize the dealers for a capitalist mindset? Hmmmm. Penalize all supermarkets, movie theaters, gas stations, etc. also, as they make a huge profit on products resold. The nice thing about being a consumer is you don't have to buy it if you don't want to. Look we are blessed to be able to own and drive a wonderful marque like Porsche. Anyway I am sure this will get turned into the usual fun thread of bashing. But I hope not as we all come here to relax and have imaginary friends. Have a blessed day.
10-11-2015, 05:35 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
no offense to those here owing a Ferrari….but I agree, with a Ferrari you have some (not all) douchey owners. I buy a Porsche because it says I am confident, I dont need a ***** extension, I am smart and have bought a car that is reliable and of high quality and most importantly it says I WORK FOR A LIVING AND HAVE MADE MY MONEY…people who pay way over retail for any product do not send that message with that product. Again no offense to those who dont fit the stereotype
10-11-2015, 05:39 PM
#5
I don't think Porsche has really changed regarding the GT cars. I think the numbers being produced are in line with past GT/RS models. Demand does seem to be up for various reasons- emerging markets, global economy arguably going ok. Lots of people have money to buy the cars, apparently. There is also some fear over NA engines going away etc.
10-11-2015, 05:53 PM
#6
I don't think Porsche has really changed regarding the GT cars. I think the numbers being produced are in line with past GT/RS models. Demand does seem to be up for various reasons- emerging markets, global economy arguably going ok. Lots of people have money to buy the cars, apparently. There is also some fear over NA engines going away etc.
10-11-2015, 05:57 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
I own both marques.....some D-bag owners in both camps....I drive my Ferraris....I drive my Porsches....I track my Ferraris....I track my Porsches...no garage queens here....many more price points with Porsche cars and many more built overall so you have a BIG and diverse owner group....PCA events helps provide an easy way for owners to USE the cars and much more volume of novice instructors than other clubs and it creates a brand with enthusiast and loyalty (PCA helps Porsche sell cars more than any other club organization focused on a single brand)...... Porsche is not becoming Ferrari, you are picking the small but influential GT segment to use as basis for your argument of limited supply. When hell freezes over and Porsche buys/powers a F1 team, and reduces product line to only a handful of total models (no SUVs either) that are all hard to come by then we can revisit your case.
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10-11-2015, 06:06 PM
#8
I own both marques.....some D-bag owners in both camps....I drive my Ferraris....I drive my Porsches....I track my Ferraris....I track my Porsches...no garage queens here....many more price points with Porsche cars and many more built overall so you have a BIG and diverse owner group....PCA events helps provide an easy way for owners to USE the cars and much more volume of novice instructors than other clubs and it creates a brand with enthusiast and loyalty (PCA helps Porsche sell cars more than any other club organization focused on a single brand)...... Porsche is not becoming Ferrari, you are picking a small but influential GT segment to use as basis for your argument of limited supply. When hell freezes over and Porsche buys/powers a F1 team, and reduces product line to only a handful of total models (no SUVs either) that are all hard to come by then we can revisit your case.
It is hard to distinguish between owners solely based on brand as most ferrari owners have owned porsches in the past or own them concurrently with their ferraris.
10-11-2015, 06:34 PM
#9
I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here.
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
10-11-2015, 07:00 PM
#10
I agree
I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here.
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
GT3 owners are not driving their cars----"oh no my gt3 has 6,000 miles???? " These cars with 6,000-8,000 miles are seen as being difficult to sell---
10-11-2015, 07:19 PM
#11
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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We should indeed distinguish P Motorsport streetable buyers
from regular P buyers
at least an early warning if not the break event point (991 RS) cause before customers
could buy and maintain Porsche rather than a queen garage like Ferrari for half the price double usability double reliability and just for a self smiling thinking that the beloved 911 is was
even better or very close in some performance parameters for half the price
in few words a clever buyer
Question do i feel still clever spending 250k for a Porsche 911
when now the Porsche RS Ferrari 488 (or McLaren 650S) price ratio is almost 1 1?
and the two latters are way much better from performances standpoint?
not to mention sisters Audi and Lambo
from first in class i feel lost in the fog and for sure there s somebody at P VW not really loving the brand
from regular P buyers
at least an early warning if not the break event point (991 RS) cause before customers
could buy and maintain Porsche rather than a queen garage like Ferrari for half the price double usability double reliability and just for a self smiling thinking that the beloved 911 is was
even better or very close in some performance parameters for half the price
in few words a clever buyer
Question do i feel still clever spending 250k for a Porsche 911
when now the Porsche RS Ferrari 488 (or McLaren 650S) price ratio is almost 1 1?
and the two latters are way much better from performances standpoint?
not to mention sisters Audi and Lambo
from first in class i feel lost in the fog and for sure there s somebody at P VW not really loving the brand
10-11-2015, 07:24 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here.
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
Pete another amazing post. This essentially defines the problem and puts it all in perspective. Spent allot of time trying to figure it out. I'm all for capitalism and doing well. My issue is with the dealers who do not honor their lists.
10-11-2015, 07:47 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
since walking dead season premiere is tonight...
3 questions to determine of you are a D-bag Porsche owner, if you cannot get them correct you are D-bag
why is the motor called a boxer
why is the ignition switch on the left of the steering wheel
what is Zuffenhausen
or conversely one question that is pathognomonic sign of Porsche cool person…
what is Zell am See
maybe someone else can come up with 3 questions to rule out being a Ferrari Douche, are there even Audi or BMW Douches?
3 questions to determine of you are a D-bag Porsche owner, if you cannot get them correct you are D-bag
why is the motor called a boxer
why is the ignition switch on the left of the steering wheel
what is Zuffenhausen
or conversely one question that is pathognomonic sign of Porsche cool person…
what is Zell am See
maybe someone else can come up with 3 questions to rule out being a Ferrari Douche, are there even Audi or BMW Douches?
10-11-2015, 08:02 PM
#14
Drifting
Number one, why would Porsche try and be Ferrari now? They have ALWAYS produce limited "special" cars so the business model in that sense hasn't changed. At least in my opinion. It's just now the market has grown a hundred fold and the demand is getting greater for limited Motorsport cars. And the company in comparison to other manufacturers is still a "boutique" brand, and incapable of building more cars to meet the increased demand. I disagree 100% in regards to the WRONG type of clients buy cars at over sticker. Then how about the wrong type of Rolex buyer. How about the wrong type of home buyer. There are MANY Porsche LOYALIST that buy Motorsport cars for over sticker because they can and don't want to wait. Or don't want to take a chance at Porsche not building more of a specific model. And penalize the dealers for a capitalist mindset? Hmmmm. Penalize all supermarkets, movie theaters, gas stations, etc. also, as they make a huge profit on products resold. The nice thing about being a consumer is you don't have to buy it if you don't want to. Look we are blessed to be able to own and drive a wonderful marque like Porsche. Anyway I am sure this will get turned into the usual fun thread of bashing. But I hope not as we all come here to relax and have imaginary friends. Have a blessed day.
10-11-2015, 08:07 PM
#15
Obviously the 918vip program has created a bit of a problem when it comes to their benefits.
This program has had the most impact on the availability of the 991RS.
Add to that that the 991RS is very street friendly and Automatic.
Low interest rate and cheap money. It would be interesting to see what would have happened without the 918vip program?
To summarize, I strongly believe that those 300 US 991RS VIP cars is the biggest reason to create the situation with $50-100k markups.
The cayman gt4 on the other hand is a completely different story. A track ready sub $100k GT Porsche is the new 997gt3! Please make more.
Porsche made the perfect amount of 991gt3 to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the same goes for the 991RS.
This program has had the most impact on the availability of the 991RS.
Add to that that the 991RS is very street friendly and Automatic.
Low interest rate and cheap money. It would be interesting to see what would have happened without the 918vip program?
To summarize, I strongly believe that those 300 US 991RS VIP cars is the biggest reason to create the situation with $50-100k markups.
The cayman gt4 on the other hand is a completely different story. A track ready sub $100k GT Porsche is the new 997gt3! Please make more.
Porsche made the perfect amount of 991gt3 to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the same goes for the 991RS.