KaiB

Before we built a full on race car out of mine, it had a PSS10 suspension, shortened gearbox, RS f/w and clutch, nice brakes and weighed about as much as a light RS.

I could get it around the track (on BFG R1s) about two seconds less fast than a 964Cup on essentially the same tire (Hoosier R6s). This should be a rather fair basis for speculation.

On a 1:27 track, 2 seconds seconds is a lot. I'm a faster driver now, but no way would my old car run with the Cup...close enough though.

We're currently about 4 seconds faster than a 964 Cup.

Jbarnes RS

With enough money you can get fairly close to the feel of an RS... My car is almost the same weight. No air, LWT Interior, short shifter, no airbag, etc....

It feels 80% like my old RS. The gearbox is a huge difference as well as the manual rack( Power Steering is nice....).

I don't think the OP was thinking of modify cars. He was trying to put a stock RSA in the similar class as an RS....

Stay focused... Factory RS cars are race cars converted to street cars, usually for Homologation.....

Flagg

Let me start by saying that the premiums being paid for an RSA vs a C2 are ridiculous. They are very similar cars.

---------------------------

But to say that the the RSA is not "Superior" or any different then the C2 is wrong. It depends what you mean by 'Superior'.

If you are taking luxury and comfort - the C2 wins hands down. There are luxury features on the C2 that you simply could not get on a RSA.

But if you are talking performance - the RSA wins - if you are comparing stock cars. It is close for sure - and I am not saying this is a big deal. I remember a number of articles having the RSA .1-.3 seconds quicker 0-60. I don't think there were any publications at the time that said the C2 was a better preformed.

- The RSA is lighter. Especially without the sunroof. And when anyone tries to improve the performance of their cars they always look where to delete weight. That is why so many early ones were turned into track cars.
- Correct me if I am wrong - but I believe the RSA has wider rear fenders than a stock C2 (not nearly as wide as a turbo) - and wider rear tires. I believe this was a 'performance' upgrade you could order on the C2 - but not one that came stock. Is this right?

FLAGG

LPMM

Fender width is the same on both the RSA and C2.

Manny Alban

I remember a regional sales rep for Porsche coming to a club meeting in 1992. He said he had a lot of RSA's sitting on dealer lots because they only had the limited slip option. Told me he would give me a great deal on one as long as I didn't want AC. I was buying a house and getting married that year. He said the 'hot ones' were loaded with the sunroof, ac and radio. If I only had a time machine....

The mystique behind the RSA made the regular C2's a great deal. That's why I bought a second one at substantially less than what RSA's were selling for (this was before the bubble).

We also have to remember that customers were complaining big time that Porsche would not make the real RS available to its US customers. I bet that hoped that the RSA would pacify them.

rdean

So Manny,
To put you on the spot, from your 964 experience, PCNA experience and PCA experience Do you think the RS America is a member of the Porsche RS family?
Kind regards,
Rdean

cobalt

It has been a standing joke around here for years. These types of threads have been going on since i joined rennlist in 2003. The RSA has some features some have tried to say were specific to the RSA when in fact Porsche made a lot of changes throughout the 964 build. The crinkle paint was not part of the galvanizing process it was a rubberized coating they applied to prevent damage that they must have decided was no longer of value and stopped applying it sometime in 1993. It actually added weight to the car. My 94 turbo does not have it and my 93 C2 does. Some later 93 C2's i have seen have the non crinkled finish. However IIRC all the 93-94 RSA's did have it I believe that could be because the 94's were actually built in early 93 and were held over eventually being M718 coded to change the vin numbers from a P coded 1993 to an R coded 1994 MY. Don't forget these had an initial surge of interest and then were hard sells by the end of the production run.

There was also the running joke that the RSA was seam welded some say the first 20-45 cars were but I believe they are being confused with the Cup Cars. At least I knew someone who had an original LSD only optioned RSA number 12 or 15 something like that and it was not seam welded.

Unfortunately, we do not have RS's in the US although I have known many of the Cup Cars. There were at least 20 of them in the area at one time. I know of one owner I believe on rennlist that owns 2. I would assume that Porsche did not seam weld the C2 or RSA to keep it more flexible and less harsh a ride for the street. I have driven seam welded C2's and you can immediately feel the difference. The seam welded C2 is more precise and has far more torsional rigidity over a stock C2. When you make a turn the body does not flex and then begin to turn in like a C2. Another significant difference which makes the RS stand apart is the lack of dual mass flywheel and the far superior G50/10 trannsaxle coupled with nearly 350 pounds in weight savings and that makes for a far superior car over the C2 and RSA. The gearing of the G50/10 would make the C2 quicker off the line loose the weight and it is superior.

Why do you insist the RSA is a close brother to the RS? If you list the differences I think you will answer your own question. It is not a special variant with unique features like the RS or 3.8RS/RSR. It has one thing specifically different to a C2 the manual steering rack. Other than that a C2 is the same. The RSA was able to be ordered, without a sunroof, A/C or radio. Could a C2 for the US be ordered without? I am not sure. IIRC the A/C was a standard option on the C2 just like the sunroof. So in essence it didn't come standard but was automatically added when ordering a C2 at no charge. Could you have pushed for them to be deleted? Possibly but I can't say for sure.

Light weight glass, aluminum hood, single mass flywheel G50/10 vs G50/03, RS clutch, lightened interior without sound deadening, Magnesium alloy wheels lowered performance suspension all made the RS a special car commanding huge premiums today. The RSA is a unique car and has its place. I think you will find that more people will say it belongs along side a C2 more than an RS.

cobalt

Missed this

Actually the RSA is slightly quicker off the line but slightly less top end when compared to its 1992 - 1994 brothers. In fact the C2 became slower off the line in 1992 when the C2 received the G50/05 tranny vs the G50/03 used in the earlier C2's vs the later C2's. As you can see the 1992-1994 C2 had an additional 5mph top end over the previous RSA and earlier C2 due to the 3.333 vs 3.444 rear end. From what I have gathered the RSA retained the G50/03 tranny at least I know of a 1993 RSA that has it from the factory. Here is a chart comparing the gearing of a G50/10 vs a G50/03 and G50/05. Borrowed from Bill V.

BTW I find that on the track the G50/05 has a slight edge over the G50/03. Albeit minor the gearing allows me to see a slightly higher speed before hitting the rev limiter at some tracks in 3rd and 4th. Weight is insignificant unless you delete the A/C and Sunroof. Most have both and then you are talking less than 70 pounds

Manny Alban

It would be interesting to ask the Museum curator in Stuttgart if they have ever had an RS display and if so, was the RSA included or if they ever planned to have one, would they include it. My guess is they would. I always heard that the RSA was the car PCA built. Rumor has it that Porsche executives approached PCA leadership and asked them what it would take to sell more cars. They were told 1) lower the price 2) make it lighter. I used to think Porsche would never build a car like that, but then they came out with the Boxster Spyder. AC optional, lightweight top, lots of aluminum, etc. interestingly, people loved the concept but it seems many choose the traditional Boxster with its electric top.

From my experience, those from the factory are quite impressed how we in the US are so stuck with numbers. It never ceases to amaze them how often they are asked "how many cars were built in t his color? How many cars had this or that option?"

I still love my plain jane 964. For me its a time machine. When I drive it I'm transported to the days before PSM, PDK, etc and when ABS and a decent HVAC system was a new concept.

nathan1

I feel like I have a pretty good perspective on the never ending "is the RSA really that special" debate which had been a point of heavy discussion since 1993. Here is where my perspective comes from:

I worked at the Porsche store in Bellevue, WA in 1992 and 1993 when these cars were new. At that time Microsoft was just down the street and new millionaires were being minted daily. For whatever reason the RSA became the car to buy for these local PCA/Microsoft types and almost all were immediately modified into track/de type set ups. The early run sold like hot cakes and this local concentration can be seen 20+ years later in the fact that Washington state has the 2nd highest number of RSA's registered behind California according to RSAmerica.net. This is surprising considering California has 38 million people we have 6 million.

These early buyers prized the more "pure" configurations which ideally is LSD only. Later on towards the end of 1993 into 1994 it seemed the craze cooled off and we ended up with a couple of unsold RSA's (along with 3.6 turbo's, America Roadsters, etc!) that were 4 option cars. This was of course also the era where Porsche simply couldn't sell cars if they tried, partly due to general economic conditions, partly due to a stale product lineup and partly due to very high sticker prices on their cars.

Since I was a college aged kid at that time I couldn't afford an RSA but always wanted one. Fast forward many years and I ended up buying one of the very RSA's I detailed for delivery (GR, LSD and Radio only). It was a spectacular 26k mile example. Here is a link to my old car: http://kevinjsalisbury.com/blog/2013...ury-cars-owner

I recently sold that example which is now for sale at Motorgroup in Portland ( http://www.motorgroupllc.com). I replaced it with an even nicer LSD only 20k mile top .01% example. I am currently in the process of making it as close to a true Euro RS as possible (basically everything except seam welding and transmission). When that is all done I will put a thread together.

As it relates to the "special question" here are my thoughts:
-All 964's are special and GREAT cars!!

-Having driven a "real" Euro RS as well as a 1992 US Carrera Cup there are noticeable differences between them and an RSA. Anyone who says otherwise is too married to their love of the RSA (and I LOVE my RSA!). They simply drive like a 964 amped up on meth, addicting.... Just sharper and more "alive" in every area.

-An RSA is the best starting point to getting as close to the RS feel of any 964 simply because if you get a no roof/AC example you are part of he way there. Now lighten it up, update the suspension, exhaust, engine software, clutch, etc and you can get VERY close to the Euro RS feel.

-The same can be done with a regular C2 coupe, but it will never be as light and a lot more work has to be done to get the weight down, but it is still a great car!


As it relates to prices the market will ultimately speak on this issue and it has. Non withstanding the actual $$ amounts (which change daily) the rank from most valuable to least valuable won't change, which basically will synthesize what the buyers in the market place think of the various models. Here is how they will always shake out (of course correcting for like quality):

1. 964 RS (Euro)/ US Carrera Cup
2. RS America
3. 1992-1994 C2 Manual coupe
4. 1990-1991 C2 manual coupe

Now we could argue all day long what the delta between the models should be, but again the market will set that.

Overall, I don't understand all the contention. If you own a 964 you are a VERY lucky person! Enjoy it and don't worry whether or not one model is worth more, is more "desirable", etc. Let's save all the bickering for being united against the many 964 "haters" out there!

Now let's go out and drive our 964's!

forklift

I've read most posts but not all of them so some of this may be restating.

As the second owner of RSA 006 starting in 7/03 which is not seam welded had a/c (long gone) , lsd (replaced) and sunroof (welded shut) and here is my .02:

From the factory (before mods) the RSA is nothing close to a Euro RS / American Cup but those aren't too far off a Euro Cup (yes I know there are differences). RSAs are glorified C2s, again IMO.

Now, once you start modifying a RSA or C2 they can get very close and just as fast at some tracks and very close on others w/o opening the motor and trans...on equal tires.

I wish all RSAs/C2s came with the RS/Cup gear boxes which for C2s would have just been a longer 2nd w/ the 3.44 and RSAs w/ a 3.44 instead of a 3.33 and the longer 2nd. That is the big advantage of the Euro cars and Am Cups.

About 4 years ago I drove a stock RSA on track and couldn't believe how crappy it was. It leaned like a 77 Buick.

About 2-3 years ago I drove a Euro Cup (with no mods) on track at about 8/10ths and was surprised at how close my car was to it in terms of power and handling. Power is about the same I think since I have a custom chip, headers and exhaust but the Euro Cup is about 200# lighter but the owner was riding shotgun so that cancelled that out. It was also on Hoosiers as my car was and is. Also stiffness was about the same with my custom welded cage. Braking was about the same also --- really they were very even. If anything my car with race JRZs and siffer springs handled better than the Cup with Cup Bilsteins.

GTC1 track records which are only 964 Euro Cups with no mods IIRC except exhaust bypasses and are of course on real slicks which means around 1.5-2 seconds depending on the track are usually not far off G or H class 964s/RSAs especially when taking into account slicks. IIRC 964 cups can weigh 2,550 w/ driver but I can't remember exactly but <2,600 and I think they usually come in around 2,650-2,700 w/ driver or at least by friend's comes in there.

G (stock) 964/RSAs are 2,910 with driver but have the following major mods allowed:
-full custom cage
-chip
-suspension incl springs and bushings
-diff
-exhaust
Motor internals and (crappy) gearing must remain stock.

H (prepared) RSAs are the same weight but allow the following beyond stock:
-4.00 ring and pinion
-3.8 wing
-big brakes -usually big reds/blacks so slightly bigger than Cups
-race ABS $$$, not very common
-probably other minor stuff.

I realize that track records will depend on the driver (all GTC1 drivers below are fast btw), track conditions etc here are a few records again keeping in mind Cups are on slicks (which make a bigger difference on some tracks) and about 200#s lighter and G/H cars on Hoosiers:

NJMP Thunderbolt:
C1/Euro Cup: 1:29:4689
G /RSA: 1:29:773

Road America:
C1: 2:28:381
G / RSA: 2:31:971

Road Atlanta:
C1: 1:34:622
G/RSA: 1:36:789

Sebring:
C1: 2:22:43 (with Patrick Long driving although the track was slow I heard)
G/RSA: 2:25:181

Summit Point:
C1: 1:21:113
G/RSA: 1:21:156

VIR:
C1: 2:05:869
G/RSA: 2:07:982 (new pavement)
H/RSA: 2:05:201 (new pavement, but this is insanely fast)

Watkins Glen, this is the one with the largest gap. I think it is because a few corners are long and the slicks help as well as this is the worst track I know of for stock 964 gearing where many corners are too fast for 2nd and too slow for 3rd and you wind up w/ the tach around 3,900ish IIRC :

C1: 2:05:255
G: 2:09:766

Just my .02 / food for thought esp those who aren't familiar w/ PCA racing but a RSA/C2 without any motor mods and stock gearing can be damn fast w/ a good driver, chip/exhaust and suspension.

cobalt

I am sure I am reading too much into this as I usually do, but why do you say this?

Converting any of these cars is a lot of work. My C4 converted to C2 will weigh less than an RS when I am done. The end product will be no different if I did the conversion to an RSA or C2.

nathan1

Technically you would be correct. But practically most people wouldn't go to the trouble to remove absolutely everything that separates an RSA from a regular C2. Most likely they would do the easiest most cost effective things first. To get a C2 to the baseline weight of an RSA you would have to remove the following:
-power mirrors, install manual aero mirrors
-cruise control
-rear decklid and speakers (install RS carpet) to be fair on the RSA you would have to remove the rear seat delete.
- rear seats, seat belts, rear sound deadening
-door panels replace with rs panels
-remove AC compressor, condenser, evaporator and all lines
- remove power steering pump, drive, lines and install manual steering rack
- cut roof off, weld in non sunroof roof panel, remove all wiring and switch
- remove OEM front trunk carpet and swap with RSA lightweight felt carpet.

Now in all reality if you were in a lighten it up path you wouldn't install some of these items back and you would find other big items to toss first (OEM seats either RSA or C2 swap to shell type, cat, primary or 2nd muffler, spare tire, tools, tire compressor, front trunk carpet light weight battery, lighter wheels, heater assist fan, sound deadening, airbags, fog lights and bumperettes, OEM Clutch and flywheel, etc,etc). In all reality it's fairly easy to loose a couple hundred pounds off either car, the trick is getting much higher than that and keeping it street able.

So overall either car can be made much lighter, it's just a no-roof, no AC, RSA is a much easier starting point.

GeorgeK

The *only* selling point of an RSA is the lack of sunroof. All the rest is bullsh.... err, speculation.

Wait.... my (pig of a ) C4 has no sunroof, no crinkled paint under the lid. Can I call is an RSA4?

cobalt

Before I continue my purpose is not to bash the RSA it is a great car as are all 964's. It has a unique place but it is worth no more than a C2 unless you keep it stock. Once we start modifying the sky is the limit.

Assuming you have an RSA that has only the LSD option you have a case for reduced starting weight only and not by as much as you would think. IIRC my sunroof only removed 45 pounds from the car which is huge and is also at a critical place up high. Lowering the cars center of gravity is key.

Before I made changes to my C2 I used a friends RSA to compare it to. My stock C2 against an RSA with all 4 options 3/4 tank full of gas. Interestingly the weight difference was only 73 pounds. my car came with LSD and M030 option with Cup I's. I was able to reduce my C2 to less than the weight of the RSA by just removing the stock seats nearly 45 pounds saved and replacing them with GT3 seats. They stock power seats are very heavy over the RSA seats . Removing the rear seat backs, trunk carpet and changing out the stock exhaust retaining the cat and using a magnaflow muffler I now had a C2 that was lighter than an RSA. Yes you can do these to an RSA but the differences are nominal.

As nice as the RS touches look that is about all you gain from them.

I started a thread on Building my track car out of a C4 https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...read-long.html Once you get this far into it there is little difference and the work saved by starting with an RSA over a C2 is nothing.

It took very little work to remove my A/C rear seats and other items on my C2 and when i was done my car weighed the same as an RSA with no A/C and had a sunroof so what is the gain?

I have seen nothing over the years that convinces me there is any benefit of building a track car out of an RSA over a C2 if you plan on modifying it as far as stock vs stock and all you change are seats add a roll bar and belts and identical suspension upgrade I would leave that up to the skill of the driver. Both cars will perform equally around the track and there isn't a thing that could convince me otherwise after driving my C2 knowing what it is capable of.

Just to verify this is my power steering pump