'87 S4 Timing Death
05-30-2016, 09:36 PM
#436
Rennlist Member
Observer or Not
Standby....
Like I said, putting together a GT engine that I will run on my test stand and will take every measurement possible. I'll install my upper distributor cap covers with "windows" and actively monitor cam timing, with the engine running. I'll run the engine without the plastic cover and see what the belt is doing.
I WILL NOT run the engine without the lower roller....but I'll remove it and show what happens when the engine is turned backwards, with the Portensioner.
I'll check it with new Factory belt, slightly used Factory belt, aftermarket belt, and even a Racing Belt (if Roger wants to send me one.)
In short, I'll do all the research that the inventor and promoter have failed to do...I'll come up with all the 'hard data" I've been bitching (for the last ten years) that Ken doesn't have.
While it pisses me off that I am the one that has to spend my valuable time and money doing this.....someone certainly needs to!
And you never know, while i'm pretty dubious, maybe I'll become a giddy Fanboi, too!
Like I said, putting together a GT engine that I will run on my test stand and will take every measurement possible. I'll install my upper distributor cap covers with "windows" and actively monitor cam timing, with the engine running. I'll run the engine without the plastic cover and see what the belt is doing.
I WILL NOT run the engine without the lower roller....but I'll remove it and show what happens when the engine is turned backwards, with the Portensioner.
I'll check it with new Factory belt, slightly used Factory belt, aftermarket belt, and even a Racing Belt (if Roger wants to send me one.)
In short, I'll do all the research that the inventor and promoter have failed to do...I'll come up with all the 'hard data" I've been bitching (for the last ten years) that Ken doesn't have.
While it pisses me off that I am the one that has to spend my valuable time and money doing this.....someone certainly needs to!
And you never know, while i'm pretty dubious, maybe I'll become a giddy Fanboi, too!
I have a vested interest...installed Ken's unit a few years back and when I had to replace a waterpump, as a precaution, I replaced the belt (with a Racing unit for overkill) and a new tensioner cartridge as well.
No issues so far, but I'm pretty sure there's been no reverse rotation of the Crank either.
Thanks Greg.
05-30-2016, 09:44 PM
#437
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Hi Greg,
As you have done everything in your power to trash the PKT can I very tactfully suggest you recruit a "third party" unbiased observer to record the results - I know you are going to get upset with me for making this suggestion but I think it is important for universal credibility.
If I had a RTB I would gladly send it along but none have been made for a few years now. They became too expensive at over $200 each. I doubt anymore will be made - not ordered by me anyway.
Good luck with your tests.
Roger
As you have done everything in your power to trash the PKT can I very tactfully suggest you recruit a "third party" unbiased observer to record the results - I know you are going to get upset with me for making this suggestion but I think it is important for universal credibility.
If I had a RTB I would gladly send it along but none have been made for a few years now. They became too expensive at over $200 each. I doubt anymore will be made - not ordered by me anyway.
Good luck with your tests.
Roger
I took the statement you made the other day, with the added emphasis on Ken's customer service being "second to none" exactly as you meant it to be....a little "back handed" slap.
But that was cool....I know that I'm questioning a product that you sell and have an exclusive thing on....which is a threat to your market.
So, I expected you to kick back........some.
However, I find it incredulous that you would even suggest that my honesty or my credibility is an issue, after all the business dealings we've had.
Clearly, I need to revaluate our relationship....I wouldn't want you to (nor would I want to) ever do business with someone you don't trust 100%.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
05-31-2016, 12:11 PM
#438
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Hi Greg,
I knew you would take it the wrong way and I tried so hard to word it in such a way that you would not.
I personally trust you 1000% no question - however it is NOT me you are trying to convince. I will say that again for added emphasis - IT IS NOT ME YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE!!
PKT's are a small but successful part of my business and of course I have a vested interest as I do with everything I sell.
You are way too sensitive my friend - you take too much out of context. I was specifically talking about Ken's support of his products and his customer service. WHY would you think that was a slap at you is beyond me!!! I do not buy anything from you that I also buy from Ken.
When it comes to your products and services you support is second to none.
I knew you would take it the wrong way and I tried so hard to word it in such a way that you would not.
I personally trust you 1000% no question - however it is NOT me you are trying to convince. I will say that again for added emphasis - IT IS NOT ME YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE!!
PKT's are a small but successful part of my business and of course I have a vested interest as I do with everything I sell.
You are way too sensitive my friend - you take too much out of context. I was specifically talking about Ken's support of his products and his customer service. WHY would you think that was a slap at you is beyond me!!! I do not buy anything from you that I also buy from Ken.
When it comes to your products and services you support is second to none.
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
05-31-2016, 12:33 PM
#439
After sitting back and taking all this in, I want to first thank Greg for being willing to do some very much appreciated research into the PKtensioner. Given your knowledge, forthrightness and skill, I'm sure your results will be honest and accurate. Who knows? You may as you say end up being a fanboy of the design after you're done. Or perhaps come to the conclusion that it is a good enough alternative to the stock tensioner, neither better nor worst. I seriously do not think someone would go to all the trouble to test it on a very valuable engine just to skew the results. I eager await the outcome as I have a PKtensioner on my '88 S4 5 spd since 2012 with no problems. But it would be good to know how efficient it works under testing.
To Ken: thank you for a great product. I appreciate all your hard work to bring it to market. I'm confident that the PKtensioner will pass any testing within the norm that Greg performs.
To Roger: Thank you for making this product and everything else available to us 928 owners.
To the OP: Sorry about your engine. I hope you find the root cause, that the damage is not too bad and you can get it back on the road quickly.
I think the one thing we can agree on, and this is evident by the passion expressed in each member's post, is that we all love and care about our 928's well being and future health. Let's work together to make the 928 everything it is and can be. Infighting and harsh words do not help. We are in this together. Remember how our cars (and ourselves, by association) are perceived by the rest of the Porsche world.
Best regards to all,
Joe
To Ken: thank you for a great product. I appreciate all your hard work to bring it to market. I'm confident that the PKtensioner will pass any testing within the norm that Greg performs.
To Roger: Thank you for making this product and everything else available to us 928 owners.
To the OP: Sorry about your engine. I hope you find the root cause, that the damage is not too bad and you can get it back on the road quickly.
I think the one thing we can agree on, and this is evident by the passion expressed in each member's post, is that we all love and care about our 928's well being and future health. Let's work together to make the 928 everything it is and can be. Infighting and harsh words do not help. We are in this together. Remember how our cars (and ourselves, by association) are perceived by the rest of the Porsche world.
Best regards to all,
Joe
05-31-2016, 12:58 PM
#440
Rennlist Member
To the OP: How's the oil pump bearing? I just replaced a completely shot oil pump, the sprocket could be wiggled side to side a few mm. Actually ground 0.5 mm off the edge of my timing belt because it caused misalignment on the crank gear. Thought I would ask, its not common but you never know...
05-31-2016, 01:11 PM
#441
Nordschleife Master
05-31-2016, 02:47 PM
#443
Three Wheelin'
As a 928 owner for over 16 years, I'd like to add to Go Go Joe's comments:
The two threads that are intertwined with accusations, slams, hurty-feelings and passive-aggressive comments over the PKT are troublesome. The reality is that we have some of the most brilliant minds here with the goal of retaining or improving our vehicles in a battle that should (could?) be handled differently.
If this escalates much more, I fear that NO ONE will take a chance and try to develop cures for what ails us all: A complicated aging supercar with a growing NLA parts list, limited factory support and the fact that probably most of us are either unable or unqualified in most cases to wrench on them for major services.
For that reason, there are many, like me, who may jump at an opportunity to minimize those potential issues or upscale their 928 and buy the latest and greatest idea for a mechanical widget or updated appearance trim. Think of all the originally hysteria-driven problems that became solid alternative solutions for torque-tube bearings, clamps, specialty hoses, modified water pumps, tensioners, timing belts, motor-mounts and computer chips, superchargers, intake ducting systems, aluminum radiators and rear fender liners. And cool stuff like LED lighting, window switches, flush console modifications, speakers, etc. What would it be like if no one cared enough to make things better for us all?
Not to diminish the pain of the OP and the unfortunate loss he has sustained, NO vendor has control over the conditions, manner or accuracy of the installation of any product once it has been shipped, especially as they pertain to a virtually hand-made 25 year old car. Are accurate and concise instructions important? Hell yes, but if I don't understand them (which is most of the time) I'll make a call or post it here to harvest the great minds that support us all. If I didn't when things didn't look or feel right, It's on me. And then you have the biggest variable of all: Sometimes, **** just does not work. You pays your money and you takes your chances.............ask me how I know.
Roger, Greg, Ken, and yes, you too Mark, Carl, Hans, Victor, Jerry and all the others that envision new things and supply the support for our 928's; perhaps you should form a council (in the cloud) of some sorts that help develop each other's concepts or products, even though sometimes as direct competitors, because all ships (or U-boats) will rise with the tide. We need you to be here, and develop additional solutions for our 928's that are "more better" or "more beautifuller". Just sayin!
The two threads that are intertwined with accusations, slams, hurty-feelings and passive-aggressive comments over the PKT are troublesome. The reality is that we have some of the most brilliant minds here with the goal of retaining or improving our vehicles in a battle that should (could?) be handled differently.
If this escalates much more, I fear that NO ONE will take a chance and try to develop cures for what ails us all: A complicated aging supercar with a growing NLA parts list, limited factory support and the fact that probably most of us are either unable or unqualified in most cases to wrench on them for major services.
For that reason, there are many, like me, who may jump at an opportunity to minimize those potential issues or upscale their 928 and buy the latest and greatest idea for a mechanical widget or updated appearance trim. Think of all the originally hysteria-driven problems that became solid alternative solutions for torque-tube bearings, clamps, specialty hoses, modified water pumps, tensioners, timing belts, motor-mounts and computer chips, superchargers, intake ducting systems, aluminum radiators and rear fender liners. And cool stuff like LED lighting, window switches, flush console modifications, speakers, etc. What would it be like if no one cared enough to make things better for us all?
Not to diminish the pain of the OP and the unfortunate loss he has sustained, NO vendor has control over the conditions, manner or accuracy of the installation of any product once it has been shipped, especially as they pertain to a virtually hand-made 25 year old car. Are accurate and concise instructions important? Hell yes, but if I don't understand them (which is most of the time) I'll make a call or post it here to harvest the great minds that support us all. If I didn't when things didn't look or feel right, It's on me. And then you have the biggest variable of all: Sometimes, **** just does not work. You pays your money and you takes your chances.............ask me how I know.
Roger, Greg, Ken, and yes, you too Mark, Carl, Hans, Victor, Jerry and all the others that envision new things and supply the support for our 928's; perhaps you should form a council (in the cloud) of some sorts that help develop each other's concepts or products, even though sometimes as direct competitors, because all ships (or U-boats) will rise with the tide. We need you to be here, and develop additional solutions for our 928's that are "more better" or "more beautifuller". Just sayin!
Last edited by Ninespub; 05-31-2016 at 03:02 PM.
05-31-2016, 07:05 PM
#444
Pro
Thread Starter
To the OP: How's the oil pump bearing? I just replaced a completely shot oil pump, the sprocket could be wiggled side to side a few mm. Actually ground 0.5 mm off the edge of my timing belt because it caused misalignment on the crank gear. Thought I would ask, its not common but you never know...
05-31-2016, 07:08 PM
#445
Rennlist Member
As a 928 owner for over 16 years, I'd like to add to Go Go Joe's comments:
The two threads that are intertwined with accusations, slams, hurty-feelings and passive-aggressive comments over the PKT are troublesome. The reality is that we have some of the most brilliant minds here with the goal of retaining or improving our vehicles in a battle that should (could?) be handled differently.
If this escalates much more, I fear that NO ONE will take a chance and try to develop cures for what ails us all: A complicated aging supercar with a growing NLA parts list, limited factory support and the fact that probably most of us are either unable or unqualified in most cases to wrench on them for major services.
For that reason, there are many, like me, who may jump at an opportunity to minimize those potential issues or upscale their 928 and buy the latest and greatest idea for a mechanical widget or updated appearance trim. Think of all the originally hysteria-driven problems that became solid alternative solutions for torque-tube bearings, clamps, specialty hoses, modified water pumps, tensioners, timing belts, motor-mounts and computer chips, superchargers, intake ducting systems, aluminum radiators and rear fender liners. And cool stuff like LED lighting, window switches, flush console modifications, speakers, etc. What would it be like if no one cared enough to make things better for us all?
Not to diminish the pain of the OP and the unfortunate loss he has sustained, NO vendor has control over the conditions, manner or accuracy of the installation of any product once it has been shipped, especially as they pertain to a virtually hand-made 25 year old car. Are accurate and concise instructions important? Hell yes, but if I don't understand them (which is most of the time) I'll make a call or post it here to harvest the great minds that support us all. If I didn't when things didn't look or feel right, It's on me. And then you have the biggest variable of all: Sometimes, **** just does not work. You pays your money and you takes your chances.............ask me how I know.
Roger, Greg, Ken, and yes, you too Mark, Carl, Hans, Victor, Jerry and all the others that envision new things and supply the support for our 928's; perhaps you should form a council (in the cloud) of some sorts that help develop each other's concepts or products, even though sometimes as direct competitors, because all ships (or U-boats) will rise with the tide. We need you to be here, and develop additional solutions for our 928's that are "more better" or "more beautifuller". Just sayin!
The two threads that are intertwined with accusations, slams, hurty-feelings and passive-aggressive comments over the PKT are troublesome. The reality is that we have some of the most brilliant minds here with the goal of retaining or improving our vehicles in a battle that should (could?) be handled differently.
If this escalates much more, I fear that NO ONE will take a chance and try to develop cures for what ails us all: A complicated aging supercar with a growing NLA parts list, limited factory support and the fact that probably most of us are either unable or unqualified in most cases to wrench on them for major services.
For that reason, there are many, like me, who may jump at an opportunity to minimize those potential issues or upscale their 928 and buy the latest and greatest idea for a mechanical widget or updated appearance trim. Think of all the originally hysteria-driven problems that became solid alternative solutions for torque-tube bearings, clamps, specialty hoses, modified water pumps, tensioners, timing belts, motor-mounts and computer chips, superchargers, intake ducting systems, aluminum radiators and rear fender liners. And cool stuff like LED lighting, window switches, flush console modifications, speakers, etc. What would it be like if no one cared enough to make things better for us all?
Not to diminish the pain of the OP and the unfortunate loss he has sustained, NO vendor has control over the conditions, manner or accuracy of the installation of any product once it has been shipped, especially as they pertain to a virtually hand-made 25 year old car. Are accurate and concise instructions important? Hell yes, but if I don't understand them (which is most of the time) I'll make a call or post it here to harvest the great minds that support us all. If I didn't when things didn't look or feel right, It's on me. And then you have the biggest variable of all: Sometimes, **** just does not work. You pays your money and you takes your chances.............ask me how I know.
Roger, Greg, Ken, and yes, you too Mark, Carl, Hans, Victor, Jerry and all the others that envision new things and supply the support for our 928's; perhaps you should form a council (in the cloud) of some sorts that help develop each other's concepts or products, even though sometimes as direct competitors, because all ships (or U-boats) will rise with the tide. We need you to be here, and develop additional solutions for our 928's that are "more better" or "more beautifuller". Just sayin!
Hai, truly sorry for your difficulties. My hope is that you get it sorted soon.
06-01-2016, 04:43 PM
#446
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Well that was fun, I was hopeful it wouldn't come to this but deep down I knew better.
I really appreciate the people who are here to honestly help and better the 928 as a whole.
For those on the outside looking in that simply asked good questions, interjected observations and are just plain curious....I'm sorry we had to end this.
Greg, Ken, Roger, Jim etc... schedule a conference call or something and hammer this out. Bring in Sean as a moderator.
Sorry guys.....I want to see a long term solution here but this thread isn't going to do it.
To Hoi - please start a new thread if you would like forum assistance on your rebuild. I'll try to keep that one on track....
I really appreciate the people who are here to honestly help and better the 928 as a whole.
For those on the outside looking in that simply asked good questions, interjected observations and are just plain curious....I'm sorry we had to end this.
Greg, Ken, Roger, Jim etc... schedule a conference call or something and hammer this out. Bring in Sean as a moderator.
Sorry guys.....I want to see a long term solution here but this thread isn't going to do it.
To Hoi - please start a new thread if you would like forum assistance on your rebuild. I'll try to keep that one on track....