Brake line tips for changing soft hoses
01-24-2015, 02:33 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Brake line tips for changing soft hoses
Firts off, lets please not turn this into a brake line type discussion.
I got my new stainless brake lines from roger yesterday and was having trouble getting the old ones off and thought i would do a mini write up to help others.
I remember hearing several guys say they twisted off the hard lines during the switch and i thought this could help.
Front lines:
since the threaded male "collar" on the hard line has the flat bak secton and metal line facing up it accumulates crud in the small gap between the male adapter and the hard line. this binds the two together and when you turn the collar it does not freely rotate and takes the hard line with it and it twists and kinks or breaks.
A solution to this is to take a piece of scotch brite and clean the top where the metal line enters the adapter. then spray some lubricant/penetrant and let it sit for a few minutes.
As soon as the top part breaks loose slowly work it in both directions, clockwise/counterclockwise in very small movements. this will allow the crud to break up and let the lube get down in there...
as you work it back and forth you will see it loosen and it will loosen further and further.
REAR LINES:
the rear lines, they are more of a pita. first off go ahead and remove the muffler hanger.. you CAN get to the line nuts with it there but it is MUCH easier to remove it... it only takes a minute and saves you LOTS of cursing...
next find a stubby 17mm for the soft line side, it will make it much easier (a flex head or a bent head will also work). as the regular length have VERY little movement due to the spring, axle, etc....
i could not get access to where the hard line enters the fitting. i could see the hard line twisting and could not get the fitting free of the line...
so i cut the line and was able to turn the soft line off the hard line fitting. The back soft line connector is round and not d shaped so it will rotate in the bracket.
The stainless ones have swivels so putting it back on was super easy.
If you need to reuse the line you could remove the caliper and unscrew the soft line form the caliper instead of cutting it.
whole job took about 1 hour.. have to bleed the brakes next.
I got my new stainless brake lines from roger yesterday and was having trouble getting the old ones off and thought i would do a mini write up to help others.
I remember hearing several guys say they twisted off the hard lines during the switch and i thought this could help.
Front lines:
since the threaded male "collar" on the hard line has the flat bak secton and metal line facing up it accumulates crud in the small gap between the male adapter and the hard line. this binds the two together and when you turn the collar it does not freely rotate and takes the hard line with it and it twists and kinks or breaks.
A solution to this is to take a piece of scotch brite and clean the top where the metal line enters the adapter. then spray some lubricant/penetrant and let it sit for a few minutes.
As soon as the top part breaks loose slowly work it in both directions, clockwise/counterclockwise in very small movements. this will allow the crud to break up and let the lube get down in there...
as you work it back and forth you will see it loosen and it will loosen further and further.
REAR LINES:
the rear lines, they are more of a pita. first off go ahead and remove the muffler hanger.. you CAN get to the line nuts with it there but it is MUCH easier to remove it... it only takes a minute and saves you LOTS of cursing...
next find a stubby 17mm for the soft line side, it will make it much easier (a flex head or a bent head will also work). as the regular length have VERY little movement due to the spring, axle, etc....
i could not get access to where the hard line enters the fitting. i could see the hard line twisting and could not get the fitting free of the line...
so i cut the line and was able to turn the soft line off the hard line fitting. The back soft line connector is round and not d shaped so it will rotate in the bracket.
The stainless ones have swivels so putting it back on was super easy.
If you need to reuse the line you could remove the caliper and unscrew the soft line form the caliper instead of cutting it.
whole job took about 1 hour.. have to bleed the brakes next.
01-24-2015, 05:23 PM
#2
Good tip and writeup Steven... That is what I did when I changed my lines, the only additional thing I did was while the hardline was disconnected I was able to slide the fitting down the line a little and hit the line with a little emery cloth to clean and smooth it , and then lube it with a touch of grease, Then the fitting would spin freely on the line. Should come off easy next time.
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01-24-2015, 05:29 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
i did somewhat the same. I am a huge fan of fluid film.. it will stay on almost forever and is a great corrosion inhibitor and lube...
I also wanted to warn everyone that a 7/16 will fit the hardline side DONT USE IT.... it is a 11mm... a 7/16 WILL round them off if tight.
now if i can just get the darn things bled
I also wanted to warn everyone that a 7/16 will fit the hardline side DONT USE IT.... it is a 11mm... a 7/16 WILL round them off if tight.
now if i can just get the darn things bled
01-25-2015, 01:32 PM
#5
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Adding to the tips:
Rule #1a: AS SOON AS ANY SOFT LINE IS DISCONNECTED FROM A HARD LINE, PUT A CAP ON THE END OF THE HARD LINE SO THE FLUID DOESN'T DRAIN OUT.
I grabbed a few short sections of vacuum tubing for the duty, and used a handy hemostat to pinch the tubing. You could use vise-grips or a hose pincher, both overkill for vacuum tubing. This handy step saves a ton of aggravation involved with filling the system again, especially challenging on cars with ABS.
Rule #1b: ALWAYS USE GOOD FLARE-NUT WRENCHES ON THE TUBING FITTINGS.
Avoid cheap wrenches that might expand as you add force, since they will risk rounding the nuts. Not a problem with the smaller sizes. In my collection of tools, I have some flare-nut crowfoot wrenches that are amazingly handy for connections that are tucked in tight spaces, like the flare T forward of the battery box. That's a local high spot where air accumulates if you forget about Rule 1a or otherwise introduce air into the system.
Also, I had no particular problems reaching the hard line junctions with the soft lines using regular flare nut wrenches. In the rear though, I pulled the spring clips that hold each junction to the body, so I could move the connections a tad for easier wrench access.
Rule #1a: AS SOON AS ANY SOFT LINE IS DISCONNECTED FROM A HARD LINE, PUT A CAP ON THE END OF THE HARD LINE SO THE FLUID DOESN'T DRAIN OUT.
I grabbed a few short sections of vacuum tubing for the duty, and used a handy hemostat to pinch the tubing. You could use vise-grips or a hose pincher, both overkill for vacuum tubing. This handy step saves a ton of aggravation involved with filling the system again, especially challenging on cars with ABS.
Rule #1b: ALWAYS USE GOOD FLARE-NUT WRENCHES ON THE TUBING FITTINGS.
Avoid cheap wrenches that might expand as you add force, since they will risk rounding the nuts. Not a problem with the smaller sizes. In my collection of tools, I have some flare-nut crowfoot wrenches that are amazingly handy for connections that are tucked in tight spaces, like the flare T forward of the battery box. That's a local high spot where air accumulates if you forget about Rule 1a or otherwise introduce air into the system.
Also, I had no particular problems reaching the hard line junctions with the soft lines using regular flare nut wrenches. In the rear though, I pulled the spring clips that hold each junction to the body, so I could move the connections a tad for easier wrench access.
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01-25-2015, 11:47 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
A few notes from experience:
Some of the fittings are metric and some are not. Check carefully to find a wrench that fits snugly.
A big risk is twisting off the hard lines when the nuts become stuck to the tubes. If it's not turning easily, stop and make sure the tube isn't being twisted. If the nut isn't moving, remove the hose without turing the nut and use penetrating oil, heat and gentle persuasion to get the nut free. During this I'll use the clamp portion of a flare tool set to hold and support the line just behind the nut.
The calipers on the 928 use some banjo bolt fittings and some have simple threaded ends. If the flare nut seems balky, and there's no banjo fitting, remove the entire caliper and turn it round-and-round to unscrew the hose. Then turn the hose to get it off the fitting.
Nothing spoils a fun project like trying to re-flare or replace a busted hard line.
Some of the fittings are metric and some are not. Check carefully to find a wrench that fits snugly.
A big risk is twisting off the hard lines when the nuts become stuck to the tubes. If it's not turning easily, stop and make sure the tube isn't being twisted. If the nut isn't moving, remove the hose without turing the nut and use penetrating oil, heat and gentle persuasion to get the nut free. During this I'll use the clamp portion of a flare tool set to hold and support the line just behind the nut.
The calipers on the 928 use some banjo bolt fittings and some have simple threaded ends. If the flare nut seems balky, and there's no banjo fitting, remove the entire caliper and turn it round-and-round to unscrew the hose. Then turn the hose to get it off the fitting.
Nothing spoils a fun project like trying to re-flare or replace a busted hard line.
01-26-2015, 12:23 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
A few notes from experience:
Some of the fittings are metric and some are not. Check carefully to find a wrench that fits snugly.
A big risk is twisting off the hard lines when the nuts become stuck to the tubes. If it's not turning easily, stop and make sure the tube isn't being twisted. If the nut isn't moving, remove the hose without turing the nut and use penetrating oil, heat and gentle persuasion to get the nut free. During this I'll use the clamp portion of a flare tool set to hold and support the line just behind the nut.
The calipers on the 928 use some banjo bolt fittings and some have simple threaded ends. If the flare nut seems balky, and there's no banjo fitting, remove the entire caliper and turn it round-and-round to unscrew the hose. Then turn the hose to get it off the fitting.
Nothing spoils a fun project like trying to re-flare or replace a busted hard line.
Some of the fittings are metric and some are not. Check carefully to find a wrench that fits snugly.
A big risk is twisting off the hard lines when the nuts become stuck to the tubes. If it's not turning easily, stop and make sure the tube isn't being twisted. If the nut isn't moving, remove the hose without turing the nut and use penetrating oil, heat and gentle persuasion to get the nut free. During this I'll use the clamp portion of a flare tool set to hold and support the line just behind the nut.
The calipers on the 928 use some banjo bolt fittings and some have simple threaded ends. If the flare nut seems balky, and there's no banjo fitting, remove the entire caliper and turn it round-and-round to unscrew the hose. Then turn the hose to get it off the fitting.
Nothing spoils a fun project like trying to re-flare or replace a busted hard line.
I broke down and bought a pressure bleeder, the Motive tool. They're about $50 but they're worth it, I think they make the job a lot easier.
I have to agree that if you've never had SS brake lines before you're probably going to enjoy them. Remember they take more frequent inspections though.
I have to agree that if you've never had SS brake lines before you're probably going to enjoy them. Remember they take more frequent inspections though.
other than that, you wont notice a thing. other than that, you wont notice a thing.
01-26-2015, 11:45 AM
#11
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Probably both...
"Early" SS racing hose sets put on street cars were not as well made around the connections. Over time, there'd be fatigue failure of the liner inside the braid. You couldn't see it, but you'd notice it when it failed catastrophically. These are regular replacement items in a race car, so it wouldn't get that far. The modern DOT-rated lines like Goodridge have better construction and more support near the connectors. Still, use care when installing to make sure that there are no sharp bends at the connectors. That's through full lock-to-lock and compression-extension range on steering and suspension.
Eartly Motiv bleeders were shipped with a clear vinyl hose that got brittle with age and exposure to brake fluid. If the hose on your bleeder is discolored at all, replace it. Failure mode is catastrophic, with brake fluid prayed from the point of hose failure, Brake fluid can be really tough on paint, besides the mess.
"Early" SS racing hose sets put on street cars were not as well made around the connections. Over time, there'd be fatigue failure of the liner inside the braid. You couldn't see it, but you'd notice it when it failed catastrophically. These are regular replacement items in a race car, so it wouldn't get that far. The modern DOT-rated lines like Goodridge have better construction and more support near the connectors. Still, use care when installing to make sure that there are no sharp bends at the connectors. That's through full lock-to-lock and compression-extension range on steering and suspension.
Eartly Motiv bleeders were shipped with a clear vinyl hose that got brittle with age and exposure to brake fluid. If the hose on your bleeder is discolored at all, replace it. Failure mode is catastrophic, with brake fluid prayed from the point of hose failure, Brake fluid can be really tough on paint, besides the mess.
01-26-2015, 01:31 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
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" Failure mode is catastrophic, with brake fluid sprayed from the point of hose failure, Brake fluid can be really tough on paint, besides the mess."
Amen, Brother! BTDT.
If you buy new flex brake lines, put PB Blaster on all of the hard line fittings when you order the hoses, and every time that you can after that until you install them. As you do the hard lines, hit all of the bleed screws inside and out as well. Time and PB Blaster are your friends.
If you have any problems with the line fittings, cut the hoses, pull the retaining clips, and turn the hose off of the line fitting. Liberally apply PB Blaster, and use ViseGrips or similar tools to squeeze the line nut just enough to slightly deform it - not permanent deformation, just enough to break the brittle rust holding the nut to the tube.
I have never seen a non-metric fastener on a 928.
Harbor Freight and other cheap flare wrenches are useless, and Craftsman are marginal. This is one place where SnapOn, Proto, Williams, SuperWrench, etc. are worth the money, especially if you can find them used.
Amen, Brother! BTDT.
If you buy new flex brake lines, put PB Blaster on all of the hard line fittings when you order the hoses, and every time that you can after that until you install them. As you do the hard lines, hit all of the bleed screws inside and out as well. Time and PB Blaster are your friends.
If you have any problems with the line fittings, cut the hoses, pull the retaining clips, and turn the hose off of the line fitting. Liberally apply PB Blaster, and use ViseGrips or similar tools to squeeze the line nut just enough to slightly deform it - not permanent deformation, just enough to break the brittle rust holding the nut to the tube.
I have never seen a non-metric fastener on a 928.
Harbor Freight and other cheap flare wrenches are useless, and Craftsman are marginal. This is one place where SnapOn, Proto, Williams, SuperWrench, etc. are worth the money, especially if you can find them used.
01-26-2015, 02:40 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Interesting comment from Mark K- I have Goodridge hoses on my 928 and I did not notice any difference to the "feel" when they were fitted, unlike when I fitted such to my front brake on my BMW motorcycle- that was night and day type of difference.
I often wonder if my 928 brakes are fully bled- they do not feel spongy or anything and I have no problems with braking [other than too much -even with 265 rubber up front]- and I change the brake fluid every couple of years or so.
I did pick up a lot of concerns about failure of these lines when contemplating them but quite a number of years have passed [9+?] and to date no issues.
I noted when the local dealers did my brake fluid they used the two man "pump and lock " approach- I was expecting to see something more technical.
Rgds
Fred
I often wonder if my 928 brakes are fully bled- they do not feel spongy or anything and I have no problems with braking [other than too much -even with 265 rubber up front]- and I change the brake fluid every couple of years or so.
I did pick up a lot of concerns about failure of these lines when contemplating them but quite a number of years have passed [9+?] and to date no issues.
I noted when the local dealers did my brake fluid they used the two man "pump and lock " approach- I was expecting to see something more technical.
Rgds
Fred
