Fronkenstein

Probably not all that exciting to the average 944 lister here but it's only my second 944 and its my first attempt to modify one to my expectations.

I just "finished" the mechanical resto on my 928 which, if you need a laugh, can be found at "Project 928"...

The fodder for my experimentation is a one owner 1987 944 NA in yellow as can be seen below.



The car is near pristine. I bought it at auction for $1450 not running. The problem is the PO bent the valves so out comes the engine and... well you get the rest. Bummer thing is I sold the Fuchs I had for it but I couldn't resist the ca$h a 911 guy was willing to fork over for them

I am going to stuff a turbo suspension under her, B&B the engine using euro hi-comp pistons and RarST rods that have had the big-ends modded and Clevite race bearing installed. The block will remain stock with exception to the addition of rod oilers.

Power will exit the engine via a lightweight flywheel balanced to the crank into a stock gear box and be transmitted to the road via Michelin Pilot Sports on some wheel I haven't figured out yet.

Anyway that's the plan today and it will change a hundred times between now and completion.

Looking forward to comments, critiques and questions asked and answered.

Fronkenstein

Fronkenstein

Anyone it there have experience with the euro version of the 944 8V engine?

I have some questions if anyone cares to assist:

Has anyone installed internal oilers to keep #2 from blowing up?

Do you know is there is any difference between a 944 and 944S crank shaft?

Would either crank benefit from cross drilling?

Anyone have experience with swain coating these engines?

Are there more than one intake / exhaust port sizes for the 8V heads?

Are there more than one combustion chamber and quench area sizes for the 8V heads?

Which year 8V heads did not use a steel exhaust port collar?

Is there any value is using a large port / large valve 8V head from a euro 928?

Is the Rogue DME worth the expense of should I go mega?

I've read that these engines are not good for much more than 200HP NA without spending $10K on the top end and other expensive mods that in the end make the car useless on the street. Is this true?

Thanks

Fronkenstein

V2Rocket

see above

Arominus

If its just bent valves, just pull the head. You can do the rod bearings in the car too. If your going to do the clutch then its probably worth pulling the engine.

The way you avoid killing #2 is replacing the bearings and keeping it full of 15-50 oil (summer).

Those Fuchs wouldn't have fit this 87 anyways, its 52mm offset vs the 23mm that those were.

Get the Rogue MAF and a hot cam, you will get a long way towards your goal. The other option is a 16v head from a 944S or swap to an S2 or 968 engine. The 944S doesn't have huge torque but it breathes better up top. The S2/968 motors have torque and they have the HP. An S2/968 engine will likely blow up your transaxle at some point so you want to get an S or S2 transaxle as well if you go that direction.

Fronkenstein

Thanks everyone great info. I have the Rogue MAF already new in the box.

I am the kind of person that goes am out on mechanical restoration. Which means the engine is coming out. I have another complete running extra long block (all accessories).

I asked about the steel collar in the heads because the 928 has steel inserts in the exhaust ports.

I have a complete turbo suspension (not M030) and brakes. However I think I will do the same carrera brake conversion i did on my 928. Reasonable cost of $1200-1500 and fantastic stopping power.

With exception to a hot cam and custom intake i have a lot of goodies including ARP hardware for rods and heads.

I am definitely going to have the piston and rod assemblies balanced and then the entire crank, flywheel and clutch.

Any opinion on using an aluminum flywheel?

Any opinion on which clutch to use?

Streetable to me means that I don't have to sit at a light constantly gathering the throttle to keep it from loading up. I want snap and power 3000 RPM up.

On the oilers. I have heard of many 944 guys losing #2 cylinder and that it is an oiling issue both of starvation and cooling. My thought is to install internal oilers that would spray the pins and skirts. Volvo B230 turbo does this and it is very effective.

As I said I have already done the "rod fix" that Mr. Mountain has been espousing. I had local shop do this for me. The trick goes back to the 60's with guys like Grumpy Jenkins.

I have a great deal of interest in using swain and ceramic polymer coatings internally. There is proof of significant improvement in oil management, cooling and HP performance.

Thanks for enlightening me on the Fuchs but I bought them right of an 87 turbo. Is there that much difference?

I have a set of Cup 1 narrow spoke wheels I think i am going to have repainted. Either that or I'll go carrera wheels there as well if the ET55 will work.

Fronkenstein

V2Rocket

Sounds like you've got a great game plan so far... Should work well!

#2 failure is entirely in the rod bearing, not pins or pistons. Your rod mod should help a lot with that. Just make sure to keep the sump full of nice thick oil like 20w50, maybe invest in the Lindsey racing oil pickup collar.

Fronkenstein

Oh great. I had read about #2 3 years ago. Good to know is the rod issue.

Hoping to have this done for next spring

Fronkenstein

Fronkenstein

Well we have the engine out. Nearly painless operation.

Picking up the replacement engine in a week or so. Going for a full tear down. Have a complete set of ARP hardware including head studs, etc.

Head, crank, rods, pistons and flywheel headed to R&L machine next month I hope. Going to do a mild port. On the fence on larger intake valves. Lots of dough for a bit more breathing and poor low end street performance without a big cam.

Any opinions as to how well the big cams referenced earlier in this thread perform without bigger valves?

I would rather spend $700 on a cam that gets me 70% of the way there performance wise than $3700 on a cam, port job and big valves.

Or if someone out there has a hot engine or 968 engine they want to dump...

Fronkenstein

Noahs944

I love this thread. Subscribed. Please consider installing new turbo rated valve springs to deal with the lumpier cam. I noticed on Jon Milledge's web site that he more often suggests dry sumping the 16valve engine than he does the 8valve. Could it be because the chain tensioner for the cams is pressurized by oil? Or maybe because there are more oil galleries?

My 8valve engine is not a big dog yet, probably sitting at around 190 hp at the flywheel (haven't dyno'd). Here's the lowdown on my car:

1988 factory pistons & block (factory 10.2:1 cr)
4 degree advance key on the cam
Turbo valve springs
Fresh rebuild head with a stage 1 basic port & polish & thirty though removed to make it around 10.8:1cr
AFM (for now) bosch Motronic with Wilks "race" chip and 7000 rpm rev limiter
Balance shaft delete
runs 94 octane pump gas
Milledge cam http://jonmilledgeengineering.com/product/8sr-14/
Power steering delete
Full Race headers/exhaust & cat delete

I also was on the fence about bigger intake valves (as is recommended for the cam I'm using presently), due to budget & related hassles & decided to avoid that route & choose what I felt was better value = upping the compression), but you must be very careful to measure valve to piston clearance.

Keep up the great work!


-oh another note: playing with timing of the cam... you might not have a lot of choice, based on how the components fit & operate together, but one reason I choose the cam advance was to lower the power band. Personally I find my car starts to rock at about 3600 rpm. Hoping to change that for the better with a Megasquirt/MAP in the future.

-And what about emissions? Will your vehicle be tested? Because that will limit what type of cam an performance mods you want to make, right? In which case, may I suggest this cam... I have like 3000 miles on mine (it was an amazing cam), http://jonmilledgeengineering.com/product/s3-14/.

oefporschelover

are you in upstate NY ?

Fronkenstein

I am in New Hampshire

oefporschelover

not too far, I was hoping you were in upstate NY.

Fronkenstein

Does anyone out here in 944 land have any experience with other fuel injection systems on the 944 specifically CIS?

I have a great deal of respect for CIS and would like to hear if anyone has tried this approach. The great thing about CIS injectors (nozzles actually) is that they can be fit in place of the LH and Motronic injectors will little work.

CIS has the ability to feed as much fuel as an engine needs and is reasonably easy to set up.

My 1978 928 M28.22 (350 HP) has CIS and it never starves for fuel and is never over fueled. This is of course if the WUR and fuel distributor are in good working order and adjusted appropriately.

I may try this out. The great thing is I can do it without compromising the car in anyway other than building a custom intake which just means sacrificing an intake manifold.

I've also toyed with Mega Squirt but only if I can gain a lot of HP out of it otherwise I'd rather spend the $1000 on a hot cam. I can do the CIS for $300.

Anyway, thoughts? Comments? Criticisms? All out "your totally out of your mind"?

Fronkenstein

odonnell

CIS would be hard to retrofit cause it's mechanically controlled and actuated. Maybe you can install it but it won't be calibrated correctly for a 944 motor. Mechanical stuff is cool and all, but just look at how many 911 guys are jumping off that sinking ship. If CIS was better we would still have it in today... if you want old school fueling, why not side draft carbs?

Your 944 already has EFI... why not run with it? In a stock 944 you won't ever be starved for fuel. But you are right, there is a ****load of room for improvement....Megasquirt is great, I'm a huge cheerleader for it.

Fronkenstein

Yeah i have all the Rogue stuff. Was planning on getting his DME as well.