pensive

I have got a pair of 15" phone dials from an '87 944 n/a and need to fit them onto an '84 944 n/a.

What spacers do I need and where is a good place to get them?

TIA,
pensive

Adrian

Dear Pensive,
The front and rear offset of a 1984 944 is 23.3mm front and rear. Offset of the 1987 is 52.3mm front and rear. This is marked on the wheels.
You will need to measure the inside clearance and of course which tyres are you going to install but to return your track to original (assuming the wheel width is the same) you will need 29mm spacers which are very expensive and very heavy and depending upon where you live in the world not legal. USA is okay. Now if you are have inch wider wheels you can reduce this to 17mm spacers to maintain the same wheel track.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
944

Danno

Check out this thread for the specifics and part#:

Will 993 rims fit on 951?

Using the stock Porsche wheel spacers are fine because 1) your car came with them stock and 2) they're hollow on the back side, and are lighter than aftermarket solid spacers (avoid wheel-adapters altogetehr). And the spacers won't weight any more than the part of the wheel that would normall be sitting there (such as PhoneDials in 23.3mm offset).

On your car, you'd need 21mm longer studs (90mm+) in the rear than specified in that thread because your car already came with long studs and an existing 21mm spacer.

Adrian

Dear Danno,
What has fitting 16 or 17 inch 993 wheels to a 951 go to do with the discussion of fitting 15 inch phone dials to a 1984 Normally aspirated 944 from a 1987 NA 944.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: I own a 1985.5 944 and it is very different in the wheel department to a 951 and miles away from a 993. I can tell you from personal experience that 964 and 993 wheels do not fit a 1984 NA 944 without huge and here in Switzerland illegal spacers.

ModusPonens

Adrian,

Did you view Danno's link? I believe he was referring to this reply within that posting:

Adrian

Yes I did. The 1986 951 has a different offset to the 944. Front is 23.3mm but the rear is 10.6mm or something. The 944 NA is 23.3mm all round. This why I said that it did not work,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
944

Danno

[quote]The 1986 951 has a different offset to the 944. Front is 23.3mm but the rear is 10.6mm or something. The 944 NA is 23.3mm all round. This why I said that it did not work, <hr></blockquote>
Nope, ALL '86 944 (944NA & 951) have 23.3mm offset front AND rear. The only difference is that the '85.5+ cars don't have the stock 21mm rear spacer like the pre'85.5 cars. The result is a weird look with the rear wheels inset about 1" more from the fender's edge than the front, strange....

[quote]PS: I own a 1985.5 944 and it is very different in the wheel department to a 951 and miles away from a 993. I can tell you from personal experience that 964 and 993 wheels do not fit a 1984 NA 944 without huge and here in Switzerland illegal spacers.<hr></blockquote>
Not from an '86 951 it isn't (you looked at '87+ 951). Yes, without that 21mm spacer (came on pre'85.5 cars), you would need a 45mm worth of spacers to place the wheel at the same location as an '87+ car. Hence their illegal status in Switzerland.

However, a 28mm rear spacer on an '84 944NA would place the '87+ wheel in the same location as a '86 944NA or '86 951 (rear inset 1" more than front).

You're getting that 951 10.6mm rear offset from the 944FAQ Wheels section, which is TOTALLY BOGUS!!! Check out my rebuttal on my website <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx" target="_blank">951_racerX</a>

If you find ANY 951 rear wheel with 10.6mm offset (with 951 part#, Fuchs or PhoneDial), I will gladly pay you $1000US for it, including shipping to me in California.

Finally, my parts list quoted by ModusPonens has been used by NUMEROUS people to retrofit '87+ wheels onto their '86 & earlier cars without any problems. Partly because it's using all Porsche parts and partly because it was used by Porsche themselves (on rear of ALL pre'85.5 cars).

Adrian

Dear Danno,
If you go back to my earlier reply I said 29mm and now you say 28mm. I agree entirely.
20mm spacer is the largest, legally allowed here. Smaller spacers can be recommended by experience. However I caution all to measure their own Porsches up first. Go maximum which is easy to work out then look at reducing.
The only spacers I have seen in the part catalogue for any 944 is the 17mm for the rear. This additional spacer you speak of may have been a US requirement. I know here in Switzerland we had special wheels. This may have removed the requirement for spacers. When I get time I will check around again and check the parts catalogue. I am sure I printed out all the 944 stuff once before.
I have heard the controversy before over these wheels and their offsets. It may well be that the original wheels had an offset of 10.6mm but the actual 944 offset was 23.3mm.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
944

PS: I have a set of 1984 951 part number 7JX15 phone dials for sale. These were wheels for Switzerland only. 23.3mm offset front and rear. May cost a lot to get to the USA.

Danno

Hmmm yes strange indeed, the only 10.6mm offset I've ever seen is a 16x9" Fuchs wheel for the 930. This offset puts all of the extra 1" on the outside edge compared to a 16x8" 23.3mm offset Fuchs wheel. Perhaps this upgrade option for 944/951 got carried over to the 944FAQ as a standard part somehow.

Although I still think the error was because someone incorrectly used an 8" width to compute the offset of the 16x8" 951 rear wheel. They really should have used a 9" measured outside-width.

Adrian

I have just been and checked the parts catalogue. I hate things left open.
Danno is quite correct when he states that the 1982-1985 944s have a 21mm or 28mm (930)spacers. The standard wheels used are 23.3mm offset. They were also offered with 911 wheels with 10.6mm offset.
The 1986 951 was offered with wheels ranging from also from 10.6mm to 23.3mm offset.
The parts catalogue is not much help in determining what wheels work with what. The 1985.5 and onwards 944s are offered with the same wheels but without spacers.
So the question for me now is, "WHAT" is the real (without spacers) offset of the 1982-1985 944s. A 21mm rear spacer to fit a 23.3mm offset wheel and maybe a 28mm spacer to fit a 10.6mm offset front wheel is a little confusing. Tough to install a 52mm offset wheel to as well without adding to this.
Seeing as I have completely confused myself Danno maybe you can explain again using the existing set up of 21mm spacers front and rear of the 1984 944NA, how you can install a 52.3mm offset wheels from a 1987 944 to retain the same track as before on the 1984.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
944

Adrian

Dear Danno,
You seem to know a lot about the 944/951 so I will ask you if you can research this and maybe come up with the figures. It appears that the 944 is just a confusing as the 964 but that is another story.
I checked the books I have on the 944 last night and pulled out all my parts catalogue bits on the subject.
According to Marc Bongers in his Porsche Typenatlas and Peter Morgans Original Porsche 924/944/968 they show the tracks on all the 944s and 951s as being the same except the Turbo S.
Front track as being 1477mm and rear track of 1451mm. The Turbo S is shown at 1477/1442.
Now we know that the 1982-1986 models use standard 23.3mm offset wheels (I will forget the optional wheels).
The 1982-1985 models use 21mm or 28mm spacers.
The 1985.5 models do not use spacers
The 1987 models use 52.3mm offset wheels.
However they all have the same front and rear tracks.
So based on this data what is the offset of the 1982-1984 models. To me it must be around 0.
Now I have the actual current track of my 1985.5 944 as measured and approved (major hassle) at the control in May 2001.
The front track is 1477 using 7JX16 23.3mm offset wheels and the rear track is 1476mm using 8JX16 11mm offset wheels. This indicates that the original track was 1451mm approximately on the rear. Mine was originally fitted with 7JX15 23.3mm offset wheels,
I realise that this is a lot of data but maybe you can make something out of it and comparing it to your data come up with an answer that we can all use in future as our standard to help answer the questions asked,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4 (and I thought wheels and tyres were complicated on this)
944 (now owned by my daughter and I will tell her nothing about this).

Danno

I'm in the S.F. Bay Area getting ready for our Pizza Run and don't have any of my notes on my. Will continute this discussion in 2-days. Have Fun!!! -danno

pensive

I hate to say this...but now I am confused.

Hub extensions or spacers? Who is a good source in the U.S. for either?

sorry,
pensive

Adrian

Dear Pensive,
Welcome to Porsche ownership. Once you start trying to cross model years or model types it always gets confusing. This is why we have to try and thrash it out to find the correct answer. Porsche had some many combinations of wheels options, suspension options etc that one has to work through the mire. The designs tended to change quite a bit as well. The 944 had some fairly major changes over its life.
Spacers or hub extensions. Here in Europe they are all called spacers from 2mm-32mm.
There are three basic types of spacers.
Without need for longer studs, 2mm-6mm
Longer studs which are installed by installer
7mm-10mm
and pre-assembled spacers with fitted longer studs 7mm-32mm (sometimes called in other countries hub extenders).
The best source in the USA is your local H&R stockist or similar rennlist sponsor company,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: Be sure what you need first though because these spacers are not cheap.

Danno

Ok, I've compiled my 944 Wheels listings into 4 groupings:

<ol type="1">[*]'83-85 944NA[*]'85.5-86 944NA & '86 Turbo[*]'87-91 944NA & '87-88Turbo[*]'89-91 944 Turbo[/list=a]

I'll only discuss the 1st three because they're pertinent to the discussion here.

Ok, the '83-85 cars are pretty straightforward. Seven-inch rims all around with 23.3mm offset. The standard rear 21mm spacer gives an effective offset of 2.3mm. This seems bizarre until you mount the optional 15x8" wheel with 10.6mm offset WITHOUT the spacer. This places the outside edge of the 15x8" rim roughly in the same location as the stock 15x7" rim WITH spacer (all extra 1" on inside).

The '85.5-86 944NA and '86 Turbo are a strange lot. The NA cars use the same 15x7 23.3mm offset wheels as the previous car, BUT WITHOUT the rear 21mm spacer. The 944 Turbo uses 16x7/8" wheels with 23.3mm offset all around WITHOUT the spacer as well. This creates a strange visual effect with the rear wheels inset deeper into the wheelwell than the front, bizarre. May not be obvious, but if you place an '86 and an '85 944 next to each other, you can see the effect. Same with an '86 and an '87 Turbo.

Now this original post was about using '87 15x7 52.3mm offset wheels on an '84NA. The question then becomes which wheel placement do you want to emulate? The placement of the '82-85 cars or the '85.5-86 cars? Given Adrian's concern about legalities in Swiss and potential damage, I say to create a final fitment that matches the wheels on the '85.5-86 cars.

This requires the following actual Porsche parts:

This results in the following effective offsets:

So the front wheel will actually be about 1/3" of an inch inset more than the '83-85 944NA car. I've designed it that way to you can run a 225/50-15 tire without rubbing the fenders (stock car rubbed 205mm tire anyway).

If you REALLY want the front wheel to be EXACTLY in the same place as stock, then use the same parts as the rear wheel (28mm spacer & 72mm stud).

Using the above parts list, the rear wheel will be placed in exactly the same location as the '85.5-86 cars; that is, inset about 1" deeper into the wheelwell than the front (really 2/3" with this combo).

To space out the wheel to be as far out as the '83-85 or '87+ 944NA cars would require a 50mm spacer and 100mm studs (way, way out there). There are no Porsche parts that fit these specifications and I think that's where Adrian has his concern.

So I recommend spacing the '87 wheels out to approximate the fitment on an '85.5-86 car, NOT an '84 which would require use of non-Porsche parts. I got my spacers from:

for $15 apiece ($20 for 28mm ones) The studs are available from Troutman (check ad in Excellence) for about $5 apiece. So the overall cost of this spacer conversion comes out to about $130-150 total. You really only need the open-ended lugnuts if you wish to go back to our stock wheels. In which case, remove the spacers, put your stock wheels on and use the open-end nuts.

An aside note on WHEEL ADAPTERS that bolt onto our existing studs and provides a second set of studs of their own that your wheels bolt onto, AVOID THEM. While they may appear at first to be a quick and simple solution, they introduce some problems. One is excess weight (about 3-5lbs more per wheel than stock Porsche spacers and longer studs). AND more importantly, there's a second set of nuts (10/wheel) that's completely hidden when you have the wheel mounted. This creates an uneasy situation where you can't check the tightness of the inside set of lugnuts without taking your wheels off, thereby introducing another potential for error when you remount the wheel. So I say stick to the Porsche parts.

Adrian, I think we need to do actual measurements on those width/track numbers. All the sources I've found do not distinguish the '83-85 models from the '85.5-86 ones. They simply group them both together and compare them to the '87+ cars.