bebbetufs

How does wear compare between a street tire like the Fuzion ZRI and a track tire like ra-1? Will the track tire be able to cope with the heat better, and therefore were faster, or will it simply offer better grip at the cost of lower life?

I need a dedicated set of 225/50 245/45 16" track tires that will last, as tire cost is limiting the amount of track days I'm able to afford. If the fusion last longer at a lower price then that is a winner to me. If it can't take the heat cycling I'll have to look at other options.

Suggestions on tires that fit the above criteria are very welcome.
I live in Norway so we don't get super hot conditions. Rain is not unheard of

TIA

Jim Michaels

Yes, R-comps like the RA-1 can better take the heat than street tires. You'll even need to work some heat into them before they'll provide their best grip. While they provide higher ultimate grip, they also lose grip more suddenly than street tires. You may also need to compromise in terms of finding a suitable tire size.

If you don't yet have much experience on track, street tires are usually recommended for the above reasons (among others). Good street tires should work okay, at least until a certain speed level is reached as one's driving proficiency improves. At some point, street tires just don't hold up very well.

The Fuzion ZR1 is certainly cheap rubber, and it comes in your sizes. According to Tire Rack, it's a Ultra High Performance Summer tire rather than a Maximum Performance or Extreme Performance Summer tire that most street tire trackers choose from (yes, they're more expensive). As such, I'm not sure how well they would hold up; maybe well enough if you're not pushing them very hard.

bebbetufs

Thanks.
The truth is that on my last TD I was holding back because I was worried about the tires, the oil temp and the brakes. I don't want to hold back as much, and I want to be able to do consecutive flying laps so I think I'll have to ditch the Fuzions.

My current options are:
RA-1 s all around (if I can get them)
R888s all around (worried they have a narrow setup window)
Potenza s02 (yes I can get them from Germany) (May go hard from heat cycling)

Cheapest option is probably;
KUMHO V70A ECSTA 245/45 rears with
YOKOHAMA A048, TOYO R1R or HANKOOK RS2 Z212 225/50R16 fronts

If it rains I'll simply run my street wheels.

Thoughts or suggestions?

Jim Michaels

Of those options I think I would choose the RA-1s, if you can get them. They're in your sizes, and seem to be a popular choice for track among the tread-patterned R-comps. From what I've read, they provide good wear. Since they have a tread pattern (I call such tires compromise R-comps) they can be driven on to and from events, but be very careful in the wet. The Nitto NT-01 is a similarly popular tread-patterned R-comp, but doesn't appear to come in your sizes.

I track on R888s and drive to and from events on them, but can you get your sizes over there?

I'm not familiar with the S02s for track.

I don't know what a Kumho V70A is, but I wouldn't advise mixing different tire brands/categories front and rear without careful testing to see what might work. The Yoko A048 you mentioned for the front is a R-comp, while the Toyo R1R is an Extreme Performance street tire.

bebbetufs

How will going down in aspect affect the car? What if I go to 245/35 and 225/40 ?
I have found a dirt cheap set of Toyo T1r's in these dimensions .

Jim Michaels

I can't find any tires in the 225/40/16 and 245/35/16 combination at Tire Rack, and I couldn't find that size combination at the Toyo T1R site either. Maybe you get sizes in Norway that we don't.

bebbetufs

Hmm.
This was from a closeout on a Norwegian web shop.
Toyo europe lists them. http://www.toyotires.eu/tire/pattern/proxes-t1-r

Jim Michaels

That link is helpful.

Theoretically, a smaller diameter/aspect ratio should help turn-in on track, as there will be less sidewall flex. Less sidewall should also produce a firmer ride (not of much concern on track), and provide the wheel less protection from hits on potholes and such (also not of much concern on track). The smaller diameter (42 mm less in front and 47 mm less in rear in this case) will also make your speedometer read several mph higher than it does with the larger diameter tire. In inches, the fronts are 1 5/8" less in diameter, and the rears are 1 7/8" less than the larger diameter tires. I'd be reluctant to drop that much in tire diameter. In fact, I don't think I could on my Cayman S without upsetting the tire sensors. Maybe you're buying for a 944?

The link also shows that, although you wouldn't be changing tread width, the different tire construction (apparently) in the smaller diameter tires calls for somewhat wider rims as indicated below.

The 225/50/16 will fit 6' to 8" wide rims, with a 7" rim optimal (the tire mold width).
The 225/40/16 will fit 7.5" to 9" wide rims, with an 8" rim optimal. That's a fairly big increase.

The 245/45/16 will fit 7.5" to 9" wide rims, with an 8" rim optimal.
The 245/35/16 will fit 8" to 9.5" wide rims, with an 8.5" rim optimal. That increase seems more reasonable.

I know that good deals are tempting, but only if one can be sure they would work well in application. From the little I know, I think I'd pass on those tires, but you should probably seek more information and/or other opinions.

bebbetufs

Thanks for your input. I guess the only affordable option left is Toyo T1Rs in the correct dimensions and for retail prices. I would not have minded these tires if they were dirt cheap, but for full price I really would have liked to find something a bit more track oriented, like the Hankook Z212s. The R compound tires seem expensive when wear rate is taken into account.

Jim Michaels

Yes, the R comps that are essentially slicks with grooves (Hoosiers and Kumho V710s) are expensive, but the Handkook Z214s are a little cheaper over here ($155 and $179 US) at Tire Rack. Tire Rack also has BFG R1s in your sizes at $172 and $196 US. Those are all tires that I wouldn't want to drive on to and from events though. Their soft compounds wear quickly, and they offer very little traction in the wet. Note also that R comps usually need negative camber beyond what many cars can provide in stock form; over -2.0 usually. Otherwise, they tend to wear the outside edges fairly quickly. R comps also tend to heat-cycle out (lose much of their grip) before they wear out due to rubber loss.

The RA1, NT01, and R888 all have tread patterns, so can be driven on to and from events, although extreme care is advised in the wet. When the NT01s wear down by 3/32" they also become like slicks. The RA1 are famous for giving long wear, and they'll probably show cord before they start to lose grip (heat cycle out). My R888s heat cycled out with plenty of tread left, however.

Looking around for your tire sizes over here, I've come to the conclusion that your tire size combination is fairly rare over here. The only street tire that Tire Rack carries in both sizes is the Fuzion ZR1, and at good prices ($104 and $118).

bebbetufs

Can't find the RA1s over here. Would there be any benefits to getting a set of shaved T1Rs over a set of unshaved Khumo V700s? Would the T1rs last longer?
Nitto have almost none 16" sizes.

wildcat077

The Toyo T1R's are a street tire and have a fairly soft sidewall ... I had a set on my 89 911 two years ago when i was using 8 and 9 inch 16 inch wheels.
They were great in the rain but i wouldn't use them as track tires.Right now i'm using 17 inch Dunlop Direzza Star Specs for street and track,on which they perform very well but a set of Nitto Nt01's are in my future after this season when my Dunlops will be toast !
By the way,the Toyo Ra1's and Nitto NT01's are the same compound and are made by the same company ...

Cheers !
Phil

bebbetufs

Thanks for your input. Giving my limited options due to tire sizes I'm still eager for opinions on these tires if shaved. Given that they have softer sidewalls than R compound tires they may enable me to run less camber, a better compromise for the street. I will probably only be able to do 6 DEs a year.

Jim Michaels

I have no experience with the T1Rs, but I don't think I'd bother to have them shaved. They come new with about 8/32" tread depth, so shaving probably won't make them much quicker, although they might feel a bit quicker with somewhat less tread squirm.

The Dunlop Star Specs that wildcat077 mentioned above are very popular street tires for autocross and track here.

Six DEs a year makes me feel like a slacker.

wildcat077

Like Jim says,a lot of people in my PCA region as well are running the Dunlops with great feedback.
I was really surprised at how well they handle in the rain and i really beat the crap out of them on the track.I have less than half the original thread left on mine and they're still gripping very well !

I definitely need a set of R compounds for dry track use,that will be the Nitto NT01's for next season ...

Cheers !
Phil