Tesla M3D review: split decision - Laguna Edition
11-22-2018, 01:18 AM
#31
Hey guys, Cameron here. The 1:48 was actually a RWD Model 3 that I later sold and bought a performance car. Actually I kinda miss the early-build Model 3 RWD because the handling was more pure and the early cars had a much more spring rate, but I digress. Here is a handy lap time comparison at Laguna I did a while back between Model 3 RWD stock (all seasons and all, 1:54), Model 3 RWD with Hoosier tires and brake pads (1:48), and a stock Model 3 Performance w/o track mode:
Agree with David’s observations about the brakes, and Kibort’s info about power at higher motor speed. The brakes are being addressed by the enterprising after market, but I think the motor power one is more interesting. The car is definitely quick 0-60 and then power starts to drop off, taller tires or different final drive would move the sweet spot a bit to speeds that are more track-friendly.
BTW, I have a Taycan on order, as well. I have zero brand loyalty (we have a Bolt, too, along with gasser cars), but the Model 3 is really a class of car (3 series) that Porsche hasn’t ever made, and the Taycan seems more like an EV panamera (Model S?) competitor. Looking forward to the. 2020 Taycan and 2020 Model S track shootout. I’d predict that Model S is faster over a single lap but Taycan will have better track longevity.
Agree with David’s observations about the brakes, and Kibort’s info about power at higher motor speed. The brakes are being addressed by the enterprising after market, but I think the motor power one is more interesting. The car is definitely quick 0-60 and then power starts to drop off, taller tires or different final drive would move the sweet spot a bit to speeds that are more track-friendly.
BTW, I have a Taycan on order, as well. I have zero brand loyalty (we have a Bolt, too, along with gasser cars), but the Model 3 is really a class of car (3 series) that Porsche hasn’t ever made, and the Taycan seems more like an EV panamera (Model S?) competitor. Looking forward to the. 2020 Taycan and 2020 Model S track shootout. I’d predict that Model S is faster over a single lap but Taycan will have better track longevity.
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daveo4porsche (07-12-2019)
11-22-2018, 01:37 AM
#32
BTW, I have a Taycan on order, as well. I have zero brand loyalty (we have a Bolt, too, along with gasser cars), but the Model 3 is really a class of car (3 series) that Porsche hasn’t ever made, and the Taycan seems more like an EV panamera (Model S?) competitor. Looking forward to the. 2020 Taycan and 2020 Model S track shootout. I’d predict that Model S is faster over a single lap but Taycan will have better track longevity.
Tracking a model S (as in Taycan Vs Model S) is a bit like tracking a modern BMW M3/4 - a bit of a pointless exercise unless you are prepared to do a lot of work on them in order to reduce weight and make them both competitive and reliable. In terms of Porsche Vs Tesla, I don't see it as a contest - if Porsche decide to make a performance EV it will be game over - simply by virtue of the long history with motorsport and the very different build qualities of Porsche Vs Tesla and totally different ethos.
I think the Taycan - Model S - shoot out would be far more interesting in the context of general driving - at least from my perspective.
I'm guessing a GT3 on hoosiers and with a good driver would be doing low 1:30s round LS?
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daveo4porsche (07-12-2019)
11-22-2018, 01:49 AM
#33
I see the future for electric cars in straight EV class based competition - probably in short sprint type events. That is where the strength is currently, short bursts so tires and brakes aren't destroyed and allowing for frequent topping up. As with any in class racing it will nearly always come down to tires and the driver.
Tracking a model S (as in Taycan Vs Model S) is a bit like tracking a modern BMW M3/4 - a bit of a pointless exercise unless you are prepared to do a lot of work on them in order to reduce weight and make them both competitive and reliable. In terms of Porsche Vs Tesla, I don't see it as a contest - if Porsche decide to make a performance EV it will be game over - simply by virtue of the long history with motorsport and the very different build qualities of Porsche Vs Tesla and totally different ethos.
I think the Taycan - Model S - shoot out would be far more interesting in the context of general driving - at least from my perspective.
I'm guessing a GT3 on hoosiers and with a good driver would be doing low 1:30s round LS?
Tracking a model S (as in Taycan Vs Model S) is a bit like tracking a modern BMW M3/4 - a bit of a pointless exercise unless you are prepared to do a lot of work on them in order to reduce weight and make them both competitive and reliable. In terms of Porsche Vs Tesla, I don't see it as a contest - if Porsche decide to make a performance EV it will be game over - simply by virtue of the long history with motorsport and the very different build qualities of Porsche Vs Tesla and totally different ethos.
I think the Taycan - Model S - shoot out would be far more interesting in the context of general driving - at least from my perspective.
I'm guessing a GT3 on hoosiers and with a good driver would be doing low 1:30s round LS?
I think that’s broadly true, although the recent past is littered with things that “EV’s couldn’t do”. I think it’s actually possible for a Model 3 to make it through a typical 15-20 lap SCCA race, my consumption at Buttonwillow which is long and high-speed was 6% per lap. Some local tracks already are rumored to have Tesla Superchargers at them.
Porsche is has already probably found out that weight is really a challenge for keeping that Porsche quality feel while also adding a 90kwh battery pack. The Model 3 is weight-competitive with the 3 Series, and gutting the interior only saves 90lbs or so. There’s a reason Tesla interiors feel so flimsy, haha.
Porsche is has already probably found out that weight is really a challenge for keeping that Porsche quality feel while also adding a 90kwh battery pack. The Model 3 is weight-competitive with the 3 Series, and gutting the interior only saves 90lbs or so. There’s a reason Tesla interiors feel so flimsy, haha.
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daveo4porsche (07-12-2019)
11-22-2018, 01:58 AM
#34
Porsche is has already probably found out that weight is really a challenge for keeping that Porsche quality feel while also adding a 90kwh battery pack. The Model 3 is weight-competitive with the 3 Series, and gutting the interior only saves 90lbs or so. There’s a reason Tesla interiors feel so flimsy, haha.
11-22-2018, 12:03 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Nice lap Cameron! Super nice lap! Stock tires any brake system changes for the 1:46 lap?
11-22-2018, 12:07 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
‘15 cup cars on slicks are doing 1:31’s, 1:29 qualifying laps from 2016 series racing, GT3 on Hoosiers should come close - we know there is a 1:34 ‘18 gt3 lap posted in the tracks section.
11-22-2018, 02:00 PM
#37
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daveo4porsche (07-12-2019)
11-22-2018, 02:27 PM
#38
Battery thermal management will always be a limiting factor in any M3/EV performance effort.
Just as there are a limited number of successive launches the MS can do or when it attempts a drag race.
But M3 can always enter the 2019 Historics, i.e. it'll be three years old since its intro then.
Last edited by Lorenfb; 11-22-2018 at 03:47 PM.
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daveo4porsche (12-31-2019)
12-13-2018, 07:03 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
nice lap - these are really really very quick cars…1:41 is faster than most 911's at most track days.
12-13-2018, 10:05 PM
#41
12-13-2018, 10:17 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
few if any 911's at a DE event that I go to do 1:41's at laguna - most are in the 1:43-1:4x range, and often 1:50 - so it is true that a 1:41 lap is quick for a 4000 lbs sedan at laguna - and most 911 DE drivers are hard pressed to match that sort of lap time - that's a fact.
so once again we are in disagreement, but we should be used to that
1:41 is a respectable and quick lap at a laguna for _ANY_ street car and is competitive
in fact it's so competitive that this same car (if you read the article) won P1 position at a competitive time trial at button willow, but was ultimately disqualified for not using the correct type of "fuel" (due to a protest from the other drivers) - but the competitive nature of the car stands - so that car _IS_ competitive in a motorsports events and in fact took the overall top position - again a fact.
so how is this not competitive?
so once again we are in disagreement, but we should be used to that
1:41 is a respectable and quick lap at a laguna for _ANY_ street car and is competitive
in fact it's so competitive that this same car (if you read the article) won P1 position at a competitive time trial at button willow, but was ultimately disqualified for not using the correct type of "fuel" (due to a protest from the other drivers) - but the competitive nature of the car stands - so that car _IS_ competitive in a motorsports events and in fact took the overall top position - again a fact.
so how is this not competitive?
12-13-2018, 10:19 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Additionally, the same car that Rogers used to set the new record also made waves at the Global Attack event. However, despite recording the best time, it was disqualified since electric cars are not allowed to place at the event.
https://electrek.co/2018/11/11/tesla...fied-electric/
sounds competitive in a motorsports event to me. all the gas cars were competing also.
was Audi's EV pikes peak record also not competitive?
12-14-2018, 01:05 PM
#45
Of-course not
Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla and Bollinger fan)