ninjabones

So, as many of you know, I sold my GT4S 993 last month (to stop the hemorrhaging) and I'm looking to jump into a cheaper (preferably spec) class. Two of my buddies are also looking to jump in with me. We've been exploring several options including spec boxster and SP1 and SP2 944's. Most important issues for us are parity, cost control, decent size fields, reliable cars, and must be PCA (no spec e30 or spec miata suggestions please, all three of us have already done our rounds in SCCA and NASA).

Initially, we were focusing on spec boxster, but after a bit more research, we're starting to hone in on the SP2 944 option. Without disparaging the spec boxster class, there just seam to be some compelling arguments in favor of the 944. Just thought I'd get some feedback from this group as to why you all elected to go spec boxster over 944cup?

Here are our thoughts:

1) Cost of entry: average SP2 944 is around $10-12K. Average spec boxster is about $30 - 35k.

2) Reliability: seems like the spec bxt engines, trannies, steering racks have a limited life expectancy on track, even with all the expensive modifications (ims bearing, accusump, tranny coolers, steering rack coolers, etc). Consensus from the 944 guys is that the 944 engine and tranny are bulletproff and can go 5+ seasons with very little drama (apparently changing the rod bearings every 2 seasons is recommended).

3) Running Costs: tire costs will likely be cheaper in spb vs sp2 (sp1 uses spec tire)... but brake pads and rotors are dirt cheap in the 944

4) Field sizes: spec boxster hasn't really caught on here on the east coast as of yet. SP2 fields are consistently bigger here.

Am I missing something? cheaper, bigger fields (at least here on the east coast), more reliable drive trains... what were the compelling reasons that prompted you all to make the jump into Spec Boxster over the 944 options?

jdistefa

Hey Glen,

Will reply to your PM.

If you talk to the pointy end of the SP2 field (Bill & Tyler Comat, Randy Smith) you'll get a different perspective about cost of entry re. having a winning 944. Both guys built 'fresh' cars at a cost north of 30k.

Tires are more in SP2, brake costs are slightly less - call it a wash.

Some parts are getting hard(er) to find for 944. I have part ownership in a Rothman's 944 turbocup and I can tell you that maintenance isn't cheap or easy for a car that's now approaching 30 years old. Issues always crop up. Hence my comment re. Comat & Smith building essentially fresh cars.

I think SPB is on the cusp of growing in the east. Talked with 3 guys at NJMP in the DE field who are in the midst of building SPBs and/or getting a race license. Bela (at Dan Jacob's shop) sold his old SPB to a DE'er who is going to make the jump and Bela is building another one. So, there are cars in the pipeline in the east.

You are quite right about the Boxster engine. You absolutely need a good aftermarket deep wet sump, accusump, ims bearing, etc. I would add an external engine oil cooler to your list as well. Tranny cooler is IMHO dependent somewhat on where you run, and steering rack cooler isn't necessary if you run a staggered setup. Despite all this, there's a chance you'll grenade an engine. And even if you don't, just like 944s, it's wise to change the rod bearings at 50 hr intervals.

None of this answers the 'why' question... Personally I just wanted to drive/race a mid-engined car

J richard

Your numbers on the 944 are for a mid range 944spec build a 944cup car will be substantially more.

Having run a 944spec:

They are by no means bulletproof, the amount of time fixing the thing and keeping it running cost in both time and money what I have in the spec box. But the box is a get in and drive it affair. As balanced as the 44 is the boxster is a far more capable and modern chassis and engine. Every time I got back in the 44 from driving the boxster I felt like I was getting back in my old 68 dodge truck.

But the beni was there was a great consistent group to run with. Out here Specboxster has yet to take hold, so I ran NASA PTD last year and will run it as a letter car this year. If a whole group of you is making the move I'd do specbox or spec 996 (the build and running costs will be nearly the same and you get a pretty serious racecar) the 944 is getting a little long in the tooth.

Paul 996

Glen,

I went for SPB so that I could run a modern mid engine chassis in a Spec series with controlled costs. Nothing wrong with the 944 platforms but I wanted the newer platform.

mmuller

Glen, you and I have met several times. I started DE last year driving a 996 GT3 and progressed pretty quickly. By Sebring this year I was feeling out where I wanted to race and was there with Kelion. I attended the Sebring, Road Atlanta and Lime Rock races to both DE and see if I found a place I was drawn to in the multitude of classes. I was convinced that something spec (or close to it) and a modern platform where a must. I then embarked on a quest to find an 09 or 10 Cup car, going as far as making an offer on one early April.

By the end of April, I had a SPB in the garage and was signed up for the WGI race as my rookie race. My reasons where simple. I wanted to race and decided speed wasn't the draw as I was going fast in my DE car. I wanted close competition, easy maintenance and my original 2 goals. I love my SPB in some ways more than my 4.0RS as its just so much fun to drive.

I had planed to race the rest of the year, including the upcoming Summit Point race, but some changing family commitments changed it for me and my next race is now Sebring. Next year, my urine yellow SPB will be at every race possible on the east coast. I also think you will see more cars next year. I know of 2 that are good bets to be out there, and if you have 2 more, we are talking fields of 10+ next year consistently. Watch a flower grow after that.

Any time you want to come over and see a car or talk about, just PM me. I have gone from nothing to everything in 6 months and can tell you what your real costs can be.

Streak

Never considered an SP2. Wanted a newer car than what I was already racing.

jittsl

Like Streak it never crossed my mind to go with a 944. I love the Boxster platform and love the close competition we generate in SPB. Inevitably 944s disappear as they get older and SPB will grow.

On the subject of cost. Mine cost me less than 30K to build and I replaced/updated every wearing part other than motor and gearbox. Motor was updated with IMS, accusump, and deep sump. Only failure I've had in two years of strenuous racing was the gearbox and A freak breakage of a droplink. Haven't met anybody yet who has had issues with the steering rack.

I went into SPB as a relatively inexpensive racing experience and so far it has proven to be exactly that.

sbelles

Mostly for the groupies but yeah, that newer, mid-engine thing mentioned above. And they are a lot of fun to drive.

Dave DE

Scott - I thought you got into SPB because of the bulletproof engines.

ninjabones

All good info... thanks folks. part of the reason for this post is that a recently built near-complete SPB has become available locally (on the down low), and very cheap... the deal may be just too good to turn down. All the 944's i've seen recently have been a bit tired and in need of a lot of TLC. I'll keep you all posted on what transpires.

longhorn911

I chose SPB because:

• SPB was already a very popular platform in Texas (where I live) and the class is only getting bigger here
• There is a big growth potential for SPB everywhere – tons of donor cars bought during the dot com years have flooded the used car market just screaming to be built into nice race cars
• It is a newer platform that should have a long life in racing
• The Spec has been stable for many years and costs have been generally well-controlled (most of the new additions to the Spec have been reliability-related)
• The cost was less expensive than some of the other classes (and the spec also helps keep the costs down - I want to spend money on racing and not new go-faster parts)
• They are really fun to drive and SPB fields have some incredibly close racing

While there have been some reliability problems in the past, hopefully the additions most have made recently (Accusump, TransCooler, etc) will make a big difference over the next few years.

But at the end of the day, you want to have lots of folks to race with, so Spec 944 may be the right choice for you. While SPB is still small in some parts of the country, for all the reasons given above, it should only take handful of builds in any given region to reach critical mass and the class should take off just like it did here...

sbelles

Ouch!!

Vonschmidt

Hi Glen

I think the consensus you will get from this group is to lean towards the SPB obviously, however that does not mean we have not looked into other platforms.

The decision for me was easy, coming frm the GT2 the SPB provides a great car for a moderate price with expenses much much lower than other cars. the reliability of the platform is good despite things that are said and there is something about a whole new motor at around 5000.00 that makes me relax. the new GT2 motor we are building alone in contrast will be over 30,00. Another concern for me is sustainability of the cars and the class, and the SPB has it hands down on that modern car vs geat 30 yr old car.

Next I considered the handling characteristics which again all leaned in favor of the SPB

On to field size and quality of competition, the club race in Hallet Ok this fall has around 70 entry's of which im told 30 or more are SPB, this field is set to explode and if you have three people looking you have a great base right there. i think you will see more and more join your ranks after they see you having a blast driving what i consider to be a cart on steroids.

anyway just my humble opinions hope they are of some help.

gums

Glen (I mean, Ninja),
This is the first I'm telling anyone, but immediately after the National at Daytona my car will be for sale. You will not find a better performance:cost ratio car. It is the current and two-time national 944SuperCup (SP3) championship car. I hope Daytona makes 3!
It is a 944S2, forget all that Turbo high maintenance stuff; gas and tires, brakes once a season, it's been the best deal in racing, it will go with spares for $20K and I'm not budging, I'd rather keep racing it.
This car dominates its class and usually wins overall race group as well. All tricks, best of everything.

ninjabones

Frank... can't believe you're jumping ship. Getting tired of all the cleaning bills from the the champagne on the driver's suit??? What's next? That is one helluva deal for $20k.

Rumor has it that Bill and Tyler Comat are selling their car after daytona as well. What's the deal? Two national champions (sp2 and sp3) selling cars at the same time... you guys know something that we don't??