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There are many of us either going through the build of a XR1000 install or have installed and have a lot of lessons learned. It would be great if we had one place to have all the Lessons Learned as well as random data.
Setting up the wastegates on the XR1000s. On to the driver side...
Originally Posted by powdrhound
Gents,
I ran the XR980s on a stock ECU for two full track seasons with 40+ hard track hours. I've run them in the summer at +5000' altitudes in +110F ambient temp for 30 minute sessions with coolant temp at +220F and oil temps at +260F. Under these conditions, the IATs reached +170F even with Marston Aerospace 4.0" Intercoolers. These were literally hellish conditions that you will never ever see under street use. With that said, we had zero detonations issues or any other anomalies during the operation of the engine. There was no meth used. You can see the engine run under these conditions in the clip below with engine data displayed. This motor was on stock ECU / Cobb 1.3 bar at 780whp / 600wtq and a 91/100 fuel mix. It was not babied and never had a single issue, not once. It was flawless.
Since we have gone to the Motec set up with the XR1000s, we have datalogged the engine extensively during the writing of the M150 ECU mapping process. We have run the engine under load up to 180F IAT and again have suffered no detonations issues with proper tuning. Bottom line, to have a safe system, you NEED adequate fueling AND proper tuning. ADEQUATE fueling will encompass a large enough fuel pump (TiAutomotive 535 or BKS1001) and large fuel injectors (IDC1300x). I would also highly recommend a way to monitor fuel pressure to let you know if or when you are running Into potential issues. With no fuel pressure feedback, you are running a bit of a game of Russian roulette. Datalogging fuel pressure after the fact is good but that's too late if you've already melted the engine due to detonation issues. A 5.0 bar FPR is also advisable as that will give you a bit more margin over a 3.8.
Regarding fuel manifold distribution, we have actually found the OEM distributor to be surprisingly good. #2 and 5 were generally a bit "noisier" but that is largely due to the fact that the knock sensors are directly positioned above these two cylinders. Again, I would recommend against Meth. If you want to spray anything, I would spray the IC cores as they do on the 91GT2RS and run a 91/100 mix. For a stock block 3.6 with the XR980/1000s, I would recommend a target of 600-650whp at 1.2-1.3 bar which will give you 550-600wtq and you will not have any issues. Limit your torque to 550-600 on a stock 3.6. We run a 900whp/600wtq map on my built 4.0 as the default file. Our highest torque map is 700wtq. It's NOT about hp, it's about torque.
Getting tuning done based on a datalog of a 3rd gear pull is whole inadequate. Good luck....
The cooling effect of the methanol would be helping the IAT even with bad intercoolers (I've seen logs from a 991 running the same boost juice formula mentioned above have IATs equal to ambient), but if the engine was reliant on the methanol to have adequate octane, or for adequate fuel mass, then the unequal distribution would cause big problems. This is not even getting into how most methanol setups for these cars are not properly thought out as far as jetting/flow.... My guess on secondary cause would be Injectors too small for this setup if they are actually 750cc, which circles back to potentially relying on meth to make up the difference in required fuel mass. This is a bandaid used in the 997.2/991 world frequently since those cars cant just change injectors being direct injected but there is no excuse for it on a port injected motor like ours. just run bigger injectors.
IATs can be an issue if not corrected for, but I've seen 130+F IATs sustained on track for 20+ min sessions, and peaks of 180+F and nothing failed- the ecu compensated based on IAT and can cool things down if the rest of the setup is properly thought out, such as having enough injector in reserve to run richer in order to cool the combustion charge, pull timing, drop boost or otherwise reduce power until things start to cool down.
Having said all that, I think any stock engine XR1000 setup is at risk, even more so if ran on a stock ecu and should be factoring a rebuild in the budget before ever going down the XR1000 path. It only takes 1 thing to go wrong and things get expensive quick at the power these turbos produce. I ran XR1000s on stock engine (and lost that engine eventually, to be transparent) and when on the dyno tuning I spent more time trying to find ways to efficiently REMOVE power without sacrificing drivability from the setup rather than make more power because it made too much power at too low of rpm on a very conservative map. You'll make great power, these turbos absolutely rip and drivability is fantastic, but the margins for error are razor thin on stock motor.
Originally Posted by T10Chris
I would have to go back and look at the logs, but I can get an answer for you re: ambient temps. It was July/August in the northwest so probably in the 80F-85F ambient, but I can confirm that for you when I get home and can pull up the data.
If no timing is added or boost added or fueling compensation is added for meth, it will be safer of course. There is still some risk which doesn't make it 100% fool proof- any ECU's fueling/timing corrections for lean/rich conditions and IAT based compensations will register what the meth is doing and adjust accordingly- this is true on either standalone or stock ecu, although with a standalone you can block the corrections if methanol is active. So your meth is injecting in the legs of the y-pipe, cools the charge post intercooler and this now cooled air goes past the IAT sensor. The IAT sensor sees cooler air charge because of the methanol and changes the timing to suit the IAT it is registering because it doesn't know methanol or water or whatever, it just knows temperature. So your timing may be more advanced than optimal- Then the methanol goes through the cylinder with the fuel and burns in the combustion process and the O2 sensors detect the extra fuel mass being burned and the ecu adjusts the fuel trim and sends less fuel via the injectors since the O2 can't tell the difference in what was burned it only knows "a fuel" was burned and it's now a touch richer than expected. So now you have ECU adding some timing, or at least not removing any timing, for the given IAT range and removing some fueling since the O2 can't tell the difference, but now you have unequal cylinder to cylinder distribution because of the intake manifold design so some cylinders are burning hotter and getting less fuel and there is no timing compensation active... get where I am going with this? There is some room for bad things to happen.
Power numbers- I did all of the tuning on 92 octane E10 Washington pump gas, then switched to 100 octane for track days without changing the tune at all, for reference. My first dyno run right off the street saw the carwent to 608 ft lbs by 4700 rpm and crested 700 whp at 6000 rpm before hitting the torque limit I had set and going into safety mode at 6200 RPM, it would've probably hit 800 whp right out of the gates if it didn't hit the limiter and I got a full pull on it. By the end of the day, the car made 711 whp and 590 ft lbs and brought it in very soft. The torque stayed below 500 ft lbs until around 4500 rpm and ramped up to 590 at 5500 rpm and held virtually flat until my redline of 7000 rpm, making the peak power right at redline. I raised the redline to 7200 and allowed the torque to taper off between 7000 and 7200 down the road, but other than that, that is the tune the car was running when it blew up- it may have made 20 more hp by revving it out a little more, but I did that to get a little more speed in gear for track use. Failure was due to a slight overboost that slipped through all the parameters I had set up, in hindsight I could've easily prevented it if I had known what was going on, but I hadn't ran into the car behaving like that on the dyno or the street, and it happened on the first track outing with this setup on the 3rd or 4th lap so I didn't even have a chance to review logs before the damage was done. Car ran perfectly until the second it didn't. No signs of detonation on disassembly from what my builder said, no lean condition in logs, no crazy IATs, was running race gas at the time, just too much boost for a few seconds per lap in a condition that I hadn't tested in and it torched the head gasket and took the head, cylinder housing, one of the liners and chain guard with it.
I wouldn't go near 700 ft lbs on stock rods. I aimed for 600 ft lbs or less, and keep it tame below 5000 rpm and said whatever power it makes with those settings, it makes and I'll drive it and be happy until I'm ready to build it. The engine doesn't really care about hp, it is the torque that you need to be mindful of, and where it makes the torque. My rods were bent when they came out, but I think that is the case for everyone who has ever ran tuned K16s on these engines, and it was not the cause of the failure nor did I have any signs of that before the engine was disassembled. Passed leakdown and compression check with acceptable numbers about 3-4 weeks before it blew up. I was monitoring everything and trying to stay on top of the health of the engine since I didn't want to do a build yet, I'd spent a long time getting the car running as well as it was and wanted to not touch the car for a year or so outside of maintenance. I'd recommend aiming for making your torque ramp in above 5000 rpm and not get too crazy below that, but you dont necessarily have to be as conservative as I was (I was still running high 5s 60-130 on pump gas even with the conservative torque, with full track aero and the drag that comes with it). I also track my car so I wanted some cushion on torque and not to be at the ragged edge so I figure 600 or below should be fine.
I talked to many people before coming to that number for my torque target, read even more and I've seen people talking about 700+ ft lbs on stock engines, but I have to ask- do these guys drive these cars around at this level, or is it just to make a dyno number and then turn it down? And if they are driving around, are they pushing the car or just putt-putt to the coffee shop and back, because if you never put your foot in it, a 700 ft lbs stock motor will last forever. Every one I asked agreed that 700 ft lbs was rolling the dice every time, 650 was probably a safe number, so I went 600 to be conservative. I think I'm going to keep targeting 600 with my built engine for what it is worth, but maybe let it come in a little sooner, and obviously carry it to a higher rpm since I'll have that capability. Even built engines don't last forever in my experience from other platforms and the car was plenty fast for me as it was.
6AN Thermo sleeve on the water lines. (make sure it is routed where it doesn't affect the WGA rod)
And metal zip ties (probably need to inspect it once in a while to make sure it does cut into the sleeve).
We deleted the banjo bolts which come in the Tial supplied installation kit and which are to be installed in place of the coolant drain bungs on the coolant elbows under the engine. The banjo bolts hang low and can be subject to damage. Instead, we welded AN bungs onto the side of the coolant elbows on the bottom of the engine. This keeps the hoses nicely tucked away at the engine case and protected from road/track debris. This is easily done by draining coolant, removing the elbows, welding and reinstalling the elbows. As far as the water lines under the car, we secured them via clamps to the existing unused pretaped holes on the engine case. Nice and easy, very OEM like. They do not run anywhere near the WG rods. I covered all the water lines prior to install with a fire sleeve for added protection from the glowing hot headers.
On the top, we tapped directly into the engine coolant pipes on the engine thus deleting the need to run any lines to the coolant reservoir. The plus here is that there is less clutter and nothing to disconnect when dropping the engine. The downside, this is an engine out / partial disassembly job.
Driver's side coolant elbow (note the coolant drain plug where the banjo bolt would normally be installed)
Passenger side coolant elbow
Driver side routing
Passenger side routing
Last edited by powdrhound; 04-05-2023 at 04:34 AM.
That passenger side coolant feed scares me. I adding 6-8" on that line would've made it easier to route around the turbo manifold.
Good tip on the sleeving though, I did not consider this yet.
I've routed the coolant line slightly different to avoid the WGA rod, but it shortens the line and the lines run slightly nearer to the headers. (I figured not interfering with the WGA rod is probably more important.) Red arrow is where the instructions show to run it. Routed away from the WGA rod Distance from headers.
We deleted the banjo bolts which come in the Tial supplied installation kit and which are to be installed in place of the coolant drain bungs on the coolant elbows under the engine. The banjo bolts hang low and can be subject to damage. Instead, we welded AN bungs onto the side of the coolant elbows on the bottom of the engine. This keeps the hoses nicely tucked away at the engine case and protected from road/track debris. This is easily done by draining coolant, removing the elbows, welding and reinstalling the elbows. As far as the water lines under the car, we secured them via clamps to the existing unused pretaped holes on the engine case. Nice and easy, very OEM like. They do not run anywhere near the WG rods. I covered all the water lines prior to install with a fire sleeve for added protection from the glowing hot headers.
On the top, we tapped directly into the engine coolant pipes on the engine thus deleting the need to run any lines to the coolant reservoir. The plus here is that there is less clutter and nothing to disconnect when dropping the engine. The downside, this is an engine out / partial disassembly job.
Driver's side coolant elbow (note the coolant drain plug where the banjo bolt would normally be installed)
Passenger side coolant elbow
Driver side routing
Passenger side routing
Very neat. Do you remember the bolts used for those pretaped holes?
@powdrhound that is beautiful. It is defiantly a TTP that I will be sure to follow. Did you use your own hose, or was this the hose supplied with the kit? Also, do you recall what size AN fitting you used? I assume that elbow is just cast aluminum?
@powdrhound that is beautiful. It is defiantly a TTP that I will be sure to follow. Did you use your own hose, or was this the hose supplied with the kit? Also, do you recall what size AN fitting you used? I assume that elbow is just cast aluminum?
4AN line; these will have to be made. The kit from Tial is what Testdr posted above.
@powdrhound that is beautiful. It is defiantly a TTP that I will be sure to follow. Did you use your own hose, or was this the hose supplied with the kit? Also, do you recall what size AN fitting you used? I assume that elbow is just cast aluminum?
I used the hose supplied in the kit. It's the perfect length. It's a -4AN fitting, which is what is on the Tial hoses. Yes, the elbows are cast aluminum.
I also used a -4AN for the WG pressure hoses from the WG to the N75 (instead of the OEM rubber lines). Here are pics of it with the OEM N75 valve. I have since split it up into an independent left and right side with dual N75 valves. Note the water lines visible in the first 3 pictures.
Last edited by powdrhound; 04-05-2023 at 11:43 AM.
I've routed the coolant line slightly different to avoid the WGA rod, but it shortens the line and the lines run slightly nearer to the headers. (I figured not interfering with the WGA rod is probably more important.) Red arrow is where the instructions show to run it. Routed away from the WGA rod Distance from headers.
That's a very tight fit - if it rests on the header it'll burn through very quickly; how hot does the outside of the oil tank get?
04-03-2023, 05:41 PM
Random XR1000 BS Info Thread
